TWU negotiations.........what?

[Mr Red]

Can't say I really blame him. You guys were misled and told something better was imminent by your negotiators. Had the TA been ratified, you'd have higher more money in your now.

Josh

ONE MORE TIME !!They wanted to give two dollars in one pocket and take 10.00 out the other pocket !Thats the reason it failed by a landslide !

 

[Flying low]

ONE MORE TIME !!They wanted to give two dollars in one pocket and take 10.00 out the other pocket !Thats the reason it failed by a landslide !

Now, nothing will be given and $15.00 will be taken out

 

[texasreb]

Can't say I really blame him. You guys were misled and told something better was imminent by your negotiators. Had the TA been ratified, you'd have higher more money in your now.

Josh

Except we only had one chance to vote. If the company had brought back another t/a, it would have passed. They knew that they were going into bankruptcy way back then and never cared.

 

[TWU informer]

VOTE NO!

WE would be leaving money on the table if this T/A were to be ratified.

Retro is still on the table.

Everyone knows that the best offer doesn't come until the 11th hour of the 29th day.

 

[737823]

Except we only had one chance to vote. If the company had brought back another t/a, it would have passed. They knew that they were going into bankruptcy way back then and never cared.

So your elected union "leadership" should have had the foresight to identify AA's instability and should not have set artificially high expectations. Unfortunately, the membership has less AND through the BK they'll be significant reductions in headcount. As has been discussed previously, the TWU would sooner sell the membership out through wage and benefit reductions to protect their dues income. It doesn't seem to me they've fulfilled their duty to protect the interests of the membership, so perhaps going non-union or electing a different collective bargaing agent is the best way to proceed.

Josh

 

[Mr Red]

So your elected union "leadership" should have had the foresight to identify AA's instability and should not have set artificially high expectations. Unfortunately, the membership has less AND through the BK they'll be significant reductions in headcount. As has been discussed previously, the TWU would sooner sell the membership out through wage and benefit reductions to protect their dues income. It doesn't seem to me they've fulfilled their duty to protect the interests of the membership, so perhaps going non-union or electing a different collective bargaing agent is the best way to proceed.

Josh

Latest B/K Update
http://twubkfacts.org/home/tabid/1494/ctl/detail/mid/3089/itemid/338/twu-wins-freeze-of-pension-plans-at-american-airlines.aspx

 

[AA89]

Latest B/K Update
http://twubkfacts.org/home/tabid/1494/ctl/detail/mid/3089/itemid/338/twu-wins-freeze-of-pension-plans-at-american-airlines.aspx

I think Jim Little is trying to steal the credit for this development from the PBGC director. In the end does this even affect most of our pensions since we are due less than the PBGC max payment?

 

[AA89]

So your elected union "leadership" should have had the foresight to identify AA's instability and should not have set artificially high expectations. Unfortunately, the membership has less AND through the BK they'll be significant reductions in headcount. As has been discussed previously, the TWU would sooner sell the membership out through wage and benefit reductions to protect their dues income. It doesn't seem to me they've fulfilled their duty to protect the interests of the membership, so perhaps going non-union or electing a different collective bargaing agent is the best way to proceed.

Josh

You are correct and I would even add the company "leadership" has an equal responsibility to communicate the condition of the indusrty to the employees before taking such a drastic step. What was obvious to some was not to others. Of course that is not how negotiations go and management lost all credibility post 2003 so the employees will pay the price for the "leadership", or lack of it on both sides..

 

[texasreb]

So your elected union "leadership" should have had the foresight to identify AA's instability and should not have set artificially high expectations. Unfortunately, the membership has less AND through the BK they'll be significant reductions in headcount. As has been discussed previously, the TWU would sooner sell the membership out through wage and benefit reductions to protect their dues income. It doesn't seem to me they've fulfilled their duty to protect the interests of the membership, so perhaps going non-union or electing a different collective bargaing agent is the best way to proceed.

Josh

They are not elected but chosen at a union convention in Las Vegas.

 

[FWAAA]

I think Jim Little is trying to steal the credit for this development from the PBGC director. In the end does this even affect most of our pensions since we are due less than the PBGC max payment?

You are correct - it doesn't affect the vast majority of nonpilot/nonmanagement employees, as 98% of the nonpilot/nonmanagement employees would get their accrued pension (as of November 2011) even if the pensions were terminated. A hard freeze means your benefits would be frozen as of November 2011, so nearly everyone would receive the same monthly check upon retirement as if the pensions were terminated. If it increases the company's costs to freeze v terminate, the company will want to get those dollars from someone, and that "someone" usually turns out to be employees.

 

[Bob Owens]

So your elected union "leadership" should have had the foresight to identify AA's instability and should not have set artificially high expectations.

Josh

How do you define "Artificially High"?
Are you aware that the average hourly top rate for mechanics is currently over $38/hr, not counting UPS or Fed Ex?
AA is only paying $33 and looking to slash that another 50 cents.
Are you aware that most mechanics in our industry get 10 holidays at 2.5x? That translates into 120 hours of extra pay if worked.
AA only pays 5 at 1.5 x, the least and lowest in the industry, we get 100 hours less pay than most of our peers working the Holidays. That comes out to $3800 less for us than our peers even if we were paid the same, which we are not.
Are you aware that we get a weeks less vacation than the rest of the industry for the first 30 years of our careers?
Are you aware that we are at the bottom in nearly every form of compensation?

According to you, expecting to get what everyone else gets for doing the same work is an "Artificially high" expectation.

The fact is that AA ran into BK with over $4 billion in cash. We could not stop AA from burning cash over the last 8 years. Whether it was automatically shiping parts around the system just for the heck of it (around 70% of the parts they ship AOG are returned unused, they would automatically ship parts back to the base if they were not used within a certain timeframe, spend $20 to ship 30 cents worth of washers for no reason other than they were not used within the timeframe they allotted, ship expendables such as windshield wipers back to the base out of line stations then lose trips due to having no wipers in stock) or any of the other countless expenditures they indulged in.

The fact is we do our jobs as well as any mechanics in the industry but we are the worst as far as compensation. Who has "Artificial expectations", us, or management? The biggest threat to the financial well being of A&P mechanics in this industry is not foreign maintenence, its American Airlines.

 

[TWU informer]

How do you define "Artificially High"?
Are you aware that the average hourly top rate for mechanics is currently over $38/hr, not counting UPS or Fed Ex?
AA is only paying $33 and looking to slash that another 50 cents.
Are you aware that most mechanics in our industry get 10 holidays at 2.5x? That translates into 120 hours of extra pay if worked.
AA only pays 5 at 1.5 x, the least and lowest in the industry, we get 100 hours less pay than most of our peers working the Holidays. That comes out to $3800 less for us than our peers even if we were paid the same, which we are not.
Are you aware that we get a weeks less vacation than the rest of the industry for the first 30 years of our careers?
Are you aware that we are at the bottom in nearly every form of compensation?

According to you, expecting to get what everyone else gets for doing the same work is an "Artificially high" expectation.

The fact is that AA ran into BK with over $4 billion in cash. We could not stop AA from burning cash over the last 8 years. Whether it was automatically shiping parts around the system just for the heck of it (around 70% of the parts they ship AOG are returned unused, they would automatically ship parts back to the base if they were not used within a certain timeframe, spend $20 to ship 30 cents worth of washers for no reason other than they were not used within the timeframe they allotted, ship expendables such as windshield wipers back to the base out of line stations then lose trips due to having no wipers in stock) or any of the other countless expenditures they indulged in.

The fact is we do our jobs as well as any mechanics in the industry but we are the worst as far as compensation. Who has "Artificial expectations", us, or management? The biggest threat to the financial well being of A&P mechanics in this industry is not foreign maintenence, its American Airlines.

And so what are we going to do about it Bob? Conduct another NO VOTE campaign and end up with even less?

Look I dont like the postition we are in anymore than the next guy, but until someone comes up with viable plan (AMFA All Mechanics in ONE UNION) then I don't see us taking a stand and winning a single battle for reversal of the trend. Even AMFA members went into battle before the plan was in place and got their butts kicked also. But the idea, if properly completed and implemented, still remains the only hope I have ever believed in.

So the complaining part is easy. What is the plan? You have already led us into this miserable path, what do you think we should do now?

OR is Retro still on the table and we have not reached that 11th hour of the 29th day as of yet?

The biggest threat to the AMT is not American Airlines, it is Union Leaders without a decent and winning plan doing nothing except collect millions in dues and laundering that into their political agenda plan. And that is all they have, will not change the plan, and we are getting our asses kicked. i.e. TWU/AFL-CIO

 

[AA89]

How do you define "Artificially High"?
Are you aware that the average hourly top rate for mechanics is currently over $38/hr, not counting UPS or Fed Ex?
AA is only paying $33 and looking to slash that another 50 cents.
Are you aware that most mechanics in our industry get 10 holidays at 2.5x? That translates into 120 hours of extra pay if worked.
AA only pays 5 at 1.5 x, the least and lowest in the industry, we get 100 hours less pay than most of our peers working the Holidays. That comes out to $3800 less for us than our peers even if we were paid the same, which we are not.
Are you aware that we get a weeks less vacation than the rest of the industry for the first 30 years of our careers?
Are you aware that we are at the bottom in nearly every form of compensation?

According to you, expecting to get what everyone else gets for doing the same work is an "Artificially high" expectation.

The fact is that AA ran into BK with over $4 billion in cash. We could not stop AA from burning cash over the last 8 years. Whether it was automatically shiping parts around the system just for the heck of it (around 70% of the parts they ship AOG are returned unused, they would automatically ship parts back to the base if they were not used within a certain timeframe, spend $20 to ship 30 cents worth of washers for no reason other than they were not used within the timeframe they allotted, ship expendables such as windshield wipers back to the base out of line stations then lose trips due to having no wipers in stock) or any of the other countless expenditures they indulged in.

The fact is we do our jobs as well as any mechanics in the industry but we are the worst as far as compensation. Who has "Artificial expectations", us, or management? The biggest threat to the financial well being of A&P mechanics in this industry is not foreign maintenence, its American Airlines.

I will agree with all of your statements but I think you are making the same mistake that a lot of guys have made over the past few years. You ignore the fact that no other airline is paying 10,000 mechanics $38 an hour, because they outsouce a bunch. The question I asked our local cowboy president in an email, and I believe you as well in a past post, is "what are our maintenance costs per asm compared to other airlines?" I never got an answer. I realize that we insource 25% of our OH maintenance with OSMs but I still think my question is valid. If you or the "restore and more" gang don't know that number then do you really think that comparing only wage and benefits is a proper way to negotiate? I think this experience has shown us that it hasn't been.
If this union can't even do a little research and see how compare in real numbers that matter instead of negotiating on emotion, then it is no wonder why we are where we are as a group.

 

[737823]

How do you define "Artificially High"?
Are you aware that the average hourly top rate for mechanics is currently over $38/hr, not counting UPS or Fed Ex?
AA is only paying $33 and looking to slash that another 50 cents.
Are you aware that most mechanics in our industry get 10 holidays at 2.5x? That translates into 120 hours of extra pay if worked.
AA only pays 5 at 1.5 x, the least and lowest in the industry, we get 100 hours less pay than most of our peers working the Holidays. That comes out to $3800 less for us than our peers even if we were paid the same, which we are not.
Are you aware that we get a weeks less vacation than the rest of the industry for the first 30 years of our careers?
Are you aware that we are at the bottom in nearly every form of compensation?

According to you, expecting to get what everyone else gets for doing the same work is an "Artificially high" expectation.

The fact is that AA ran into BK with over $4 billion in cash. We could not stop AA from burning cash over the last 8 years. Whether it was automatically shiping parts around the system just for the heck of it (around 70% of the parts they ship AOG are returned unused, they would automatically ship parts back to the base if they were not used within a certain timeframe, spend $20 to ship 30 cents worth of washers for no reason other than they were not used within the timeframe they allotted, ship expendables such as windshield wipers back to the base out of line stations then lose trips due to having no wipers in stock) or any of the other countless expenditures they indulged in.

The fact is we do our jobs as well as any mechanics in the industry but we are the worst as far as compensation. Who has "Artificial expectations", us, or management? The biggest threat to the financial well being of A&P mechanics in this industry is not foreign maintenence, its American Airlines.

Bob, the demands you have are artificially high given the financial position AMR is in today. While it is unfortunate for you and your membership it does not change reality. As a union official you should know that a contract represents a package, you can't cherry pick pay rates, holiday pay, work rules, etc from other contracts. You have to give some to get some. Seriously, you're sounding like the Italian or Greek public sector workers whose dysfunctional governments are insolvent or closer to home the Verizon workers unwilling to pay more for their healthcare and other benefits.

Josh

 

[amt66]

I will agree with all of your statements but I think you are making the same mistake that a lot of guys have made over the past few years. You ignore the fact that no other airline is paying 10,000 mechanics $38 an hour, because they outsouce a bunch. The question I asked our local cowboy president in an email, and I believe you as well in a past post, is "what are our maintenance costs per asm compared to other airlines?" I never got an answer. I realize that we insource 25% of our OH maintenance with OSMs but I still think my question is valid. If you or the "restore and more" gang don't know that number then do you really think that comparing only wage and benefits is a proper way to negotiate? I think this experience has shown us that it hasn't been.
If this union can't even do a little research and see how compare in real numbers that matter instead of negotiating on emotion, then it is no wonder why we are where we are as a group.

Good post!!!!