TWU negotiations.........what?

[Mr.Robot-tow]

I've never understood how this helps the labor groups. If revenue decreases that will just be another excuse management will give for not being able to give you a raise. Seems self-defeating to me.

Did they really what to give us a raise.

 

[Mr.Robot-tow]

While that's great for senior management, what are you guys going to do if and when AMR goes Chapter 11? I hate to even think about this, but the company could hand your retirement off to the PBGC just like the airlines who went through the courts before you. That's why I don't understand the borderline kamikaze rhetoric on this board with regard to sticking it to the company. If you push too hard then, in the end, you'll just be sticking it to yourselves.

 

[BigBangTheory]

I've never understood how this helps the labor groups. If revenue decreases that will just be another excuse management will give for not being able to give you a raise. Seems self-defeating to me.

No raise = STRIKE!

 

[Mr.Robot-tow]

B)

While that's great for senior management, what are you guys going to do if and when AMR goes Chapter 11? I hate to even think about this, but the company could hand your retirement off to the PBGC just like the airlines who went through the courts before you. That's why I don't understand the borderline kamikaze rhetoric on this board with regard to sticking it to the company. If you push too hard then, in the end, you'll just be sticking it to yourselves.

First off American Airlines pension program for the TWU is funded to 101% percent under the current Airline Pension relief Act.Under the old pension funding reporting system AA was funded at 96%.Second off PGBC would not under your wildest dream formula take AA pension program.AA is currenty sitting on well over 4.3-4.8 billon dallors with a cash restriction lifted on 760,000 million dallors released just yesterday by JP Morgan.What on earth make's you think AA will file BK.This upper management will ride this annual salary/selling stock gravy train till their force off by the board of director's.And by judging this monkey BOD action's of late this should be till hell freeze's over or JC return's.This kamikaze action you have stated that AA union labor is doing,please state to me why Mr.Redding sold some more of his stock to the tune of over 200,000.00 dallors profit the other day at the same time the TWU labor negoiation team was voting on rejecting the 2 week past deadline due counter propsal on pay .To me this looks like a lack of faith by him.Remember 200,000 profit for him and just a lump sum payment of 3000.00 dallors minus tax's of course for me,and about 2500.00 12 month's later.Again refesh me on who is acting kamikaze like.It seems to me the sticking it to the people who show up to work this poor operation of a mangement of a airline is doing the sticking. B)

 

[FWAAA]

Our pensions fall below the max so the impact wouldnt be as severe on us as the pilots. Last year AA put $1200 away for my pension. So in other words they funding my pension primarily with promises since there is no way they are going to be able to turn that $1200 a year into the $3000 a month or so they are promising. We know first hand what AAs "promises" are worth.

AA isn't simply burying that cash in the backyard, Mr Owens.

You'd be correct if AMR didn't have $9.1 billion of assets in its pension funds as of 12/31/07 with which to help cover those retirement benefits. On Jan 1, 2007, the value of the fund was $8.565 billion, and by 12/31/07 the value of the funds was $9.1 billion. Those assets produce significant investment gains. In 2007, investment gains were $766 million plus employer contributions of $486 million minus benefit checks of $618 million. That's an increase of $534 million after expenses and benefits were paid. I'd say the pension promises are backed with $9 billion of assets in addition to promises of dubious value, but as usual, you'll probably disagree.

AA's annualized return on the pension funds for the past 10 years was 10.39%; not too shabby.

The airlines that went through bankruptcy switched to 401K matches, so they may not be getting promised as much but since the money is there they will likely get what they are promised.

If they make wise (or lucky) investment choices, they'll do well. If they make poor (or unlucky) investment decisions, their retirement will suck. No worries - like MCI transplant, they can just work forever instead of retiring.

 

[MCI transplant]

AA isn't simply burying that cash in the backyard, Mr Owens.

You'd be correct if AMR didn't have $9.1 billion of assets in its pension funds as of 12/31/07 with which to help cover those retirement benefits. On Jan 1, 2007, the value of the fund was $8.565 billion, and by 12/31/07 the value of the funds was $9.1 billion. Those assets produce significant investment gains. In 2007, investment gains were $766 million plus employer contributions of $486 million minus benefit checks of $618 million. That's an increase of $534 million after expenses and benefits were paid. I'd say the pension promises are backed with $9 billion of assets in addition to promises of dubious value, but as usual, you'll probably disagree.

AA's annualized return on the pension funds for the past 10 years was 10.39%; not too shabby.



If they make wise (or lucky) investment choices, they'll do well. If they make poor (or unlucky) investment decisions, their retirement will suck. No worries - like MCI transplant, they can just work forever instead of retiring.

<_< ------- Did you call?----- Liston FW! The reason I'm still here , is because the company I previously worked for, and a curtain Corporate raider, screwed me, and my fellow employees, out of our retirement! Now I'm seeing that AA is going down that same road!!!!Beware people! Don't let it happen to you!!!! :down: Or you may end up with 40, or more, years of Seniority!

 

[Bob Owens]

I've never understood how this helps the labor groups. If revenue decreases that will just be another excuse management will give for not being able to give you a raise. Seems self-defeating to me.

But what excuse will mangagement give to the shareholders as they see their investments dissapear? Sure its a gamble, but are the shareholders willing to allow management to lose all their money instead of coming to a fair agreement with the employees whose sacrifice saved them from watching their shares liquidated in 2003?

 

[local 12 proud]

<_< ------- Did you call?----- Liston FW! The reason I'm still here , is because the company I previously worked for, and a curtain Corporate raider, screwed me, and my fellow employees, out of our retirement! Now I'm seeing that AA is going down that same road!!!!Beware people! Don't let it happen to you!!!! :down: Or you may end up with 40, or more, years of Seniority!

Its spelled "CERTAIN" ole timer, BTW... your lucky to have a f..kin job!

...Now go home and tend to the crops. Im sick and tired of hearing how your loser airline screwed you, yet you came over to AA and cry like a #### slapped whiney libber who thinks the world owes you something.

Learn how to fish and hunt pussy!

 

[wingit88]

I'm sorry but this is just a stupid argument that totally ignores what's happening in the real world. First, we don't have any control over airfare. It's a competitive thing and - even though this sucks for the company - AA can't raise it enough to cover costs.

I want my big payout as much as any of you, but I'm sure as hell not going to commit career suicide to get it. Did we get it "stuck" to us five years ago? Maybe, but we agreed to it. And maybe there always is a reason not to pay up to us working folk, but it's not like the company is turning big (or any) profits at the moment. Can't give what they don't have.

Agreed.
It sucks when you feel like you are going to go down with a sinking ship. All rules of survival dictate that you plug every hole you can - not make them bigger. Maybe I am a naive optimist or scared of what could happen to my future nestegg, but I have to hope that we can come to some sort of agreement that addresses the economic situation of the airline and ourselves.

You can't squeeze blood from a turnip. They need to remember they can't get any more from us just as we may not be able to get too much more from them at this time.

 

[The Goose]

Agreed.
It sucks when you feel like you are going to go down with a sinking ship. All rules of survival dictate that you plug every hole you can - not make them bigger. Maybe I am a naive optimist or scared of what could happen to my future nestegg, but I have to hope that we can come to some sort of agreement that addresses the economic situation of the airline and ourselves.

You can't squeeze blood from a turnip. They need to remember they can't get any more from us just as we may not be able to get too much more from them at this time.

10-4 on that sinking feeling.

While I think this contract offer sucks big green ones, after getting over the initial shock and thinking a bit it may well be the more responsible thing to do.

They aren't attempting to lock us in for a long period, rather, two years. That may be a blessing and we're too pissed to see it. Perhaps a one year contract with extensions possible (for a price) may be the way to go.

A raise is needed. Bonuses/payouts should be quantified by the same method/formula used for the damnable executives. All share in whatever financial gain comes about or none share.

These signing bonuses are a bad joke. They may be adequate if the company will pay all taxes due as is done for their elite trash. Our standard of living is not helped by gross numbers, but net - what we get in our hot little hands.

There are going to be a bit of pain eventually in the way of layoffs regardless of what kind of a contract we accept eventually. The TWU doesn't want this as it cuts into their dues collections but as another said, if you want to come back to a healty company after a layoff ... Setting down 30+ aircraft (the gas hog S80s) will definitely produce an overstaff condition unless there's enough 3rd party work there to justify the numbers.

Unfortunately, the typical response by the company has been to cut the mechanic population and hire more management types to further insulate those higher up the food chain from their screw-ups, not to mention giving a fishing buddy a job. I feel 70-80% of the present management types could go away (if one could convince those remaining to do their job - doubtful) and all that would suffer would be a few egos and empires.

Another thing I demand is the week of vacation we had already earned that was taken away. That is still on my books as being owed me by the company.

We do have to remember that the International wanted this initial hog slop brought to a vote. I believe Little Jimmy was planning to accept the contract if it were voted down.

I want to see what the offer entailed (re: work rules) rather than hear any more rumors. The company isn't bashful (ever) about sending stuff through the mail - send me a complete proposal including the proposed work rule changes.

 

[MCI transplant]

Its spelled "CERTAIN" ole timer, BTW... your lucky to have a f..kin job!

...Now go home and tend to the crops. Im sick and tired of hearing how your loser airline screwed you, yet you came over to AA and cry like a #### slapped whiney libber who thinks the world owes you something.

Learn how to fish and hunt pussy!

<_< ----Son! You sound like your barely off of your mama's tit! Why don't you shot up and go home like a good little boy before you get your a$$ kicked! Did I miss-spell that?

 

[Bob Owens]

I'm sorry but this is just a stupid argument that totally ignores what's happening in the real world.

In the real world, despite palty or non-existant profits they found millions to dispense in bonuses to the people who run the company.

First, we don't have any control over airfare. It's a competitive thing and - even though this sucks for the company - AA can't raise it enough to cover costs.

No but management does. They get paid a lot of money to figure out how to make money, if the burdens on us why should they get the bonuses and the pay?

I want my big payout as much as any of you, but I'm sure as hell not going to commit career suicide to get it.

Unless your carreer is charity you are committing suicide by not demanding more.

Did we get it "stuck" to us five years ago? Maybe, but we agreed to it.

Actually we didnt, the vote was nullified due to the fact that the media reported how the company was providing golden parachutes to top management, something the firm hired by Jim Little forgot to mention. Then Little signed a slightly modified agreement into place without a vote and probably made a killing on the stock.

And maybe there always is a reason not to pay up to us working folk, but it's not like the company is turning big (or any) profits at the moment. Can't give what they don't have.

It didnt stop management from getting theirs. At the very least we should cause enough trouble to get rid of those greedy dishonest bastards.

 

[title1 for life]

Bob
Yesterday the local union Pres. and VP came to the shop. After the "They shot the horse before it could cross the finish line speech" one of the AMT's ask why the proposal wasn't brought to the membership for a vote already. He seemed concerned that this deal might be missed.With the we will get them next time routine and high fuel prices excuse. Unfortunately what ever hits the floor will be voted in.

I just knew we were getting 01 and then some :blink: .Oh well it's a job. Maybe the second offer will be at least half way to 01 and a little less. I guess I was hi balling it. :unsure:

 

[Mr.Robot-tow]

I posted to another topic already,the TWU has called for a President's Council meeting for all President's from all local's.Did not have any details were it will be held,ATD HQ maybe in Irvine,TX.That proposal was not work the paper it was printed on let alone the pin-point presentation from J.Weel.I have said this before,I would rather lay-off AMT's and have a decent proposal,then take a weak contract for a total of 7 year's,if you include the last 4 years.Why would anyone take a bonus check minus tax's,when gas and food are raising faster than your bonus check dried and delivered to your door.If company exe'c are gettin money from the company for their performance,whice at best is lousy,why on earth should the membership be taken to the cleaner's for 2 more years.If they get for example Bob Redding just cash stock for a profit of 200,000 dallor's,this last Friday,and the AMT'S across the system have earn the company on contract's with outside companies to the tune of over 500 million dallors, profit and is projected to save and make the company even more this year,their is no sane reason we as a whole need to suck it up for 2 more years.You know they will reward them again next year.Their failure at running a airline does not mean I eat the problem.They stop taking it and start giving it to it's employee's thats the direction it need's to go.Buying new jet's will not solve the issue between American and it's employee's.Gerald Arpey must relized that he must stop hiding in his office each day,and start adressing the issue's at hand with his employee's,for it he thinks that low morale no pay raise's is the way to go,it is just a matter of time now,when the board/share holder's will pay him to leave.Remember for them it saw a 12-9 vote,they just need 4 more vote's and it goes to the floor.For us it's are retirement formula,it's are day to day expense's.If Jim Little thinks more job's will be save by passing this to the floor,when this fall hundred's of AMT'S will be laid off,he's is dreaming.Remember what the AMT's at NWA did a few year's back.They stood their ground,preventing a wage scale that would had done a serious blow to are industry as a whole,no union would have had any bargining power to speak of today.This airline would have lose control of it's company and be force into BK before it could strip us of are wage's and benefit's,not one count them not one would allow themselves to lose their pay/AIP they would take a poison pill before surrendering to the court's there power over this airline.Think outsid the box,they like what they are doing.Taking money from the employee's and giving it to themselve's.Like Mr.Hill over at APA stated this trend must stop now and now is that time.If any local President's spew's that statement on the floor,impeach asap,motion for someone else to go to negioation's that day forward.Unity shoulder to shoulder wear them down each day.Restore what was are's,nothing less.If AMT's must be laided off so be it,I have asked before lower senority AMT's if it would be worth it and they have said yes.They know they would be back their is to much work,for this company to handle.Maintence is making money for this carrier,saving this company money.No giveback's and take all that was took.Just look at the amount of money that has been pay-out to the upper management since the restructing took place,clue in the million's.Shot the horse,what horse that was a donkey.Shut this airline down for a day and AMR's board would have a emergency meeting to discuss why in the world our the employee's are so upset Mr.Arpey.And it's not hate it just fair.

 

[The Goose]

I posted to another topic already,the TWU has called for a President's Council meeting for all President's from all local's.Did not have any details were it will be held,ATD HQ maybe in Irvine,TX.That proposal was not work the paper it was printed on let alone the pin-point presentation from J.Weel.I have said this before,I would rather lay-off AMT's and have a decent proposal,then take a weak contract for a total of 7 year's,if you include the last 4 years.Why would anyone take a bonus check minus tax's,when gas and food are raising faster than your bonus check dried and delivered to your door.If company exe'c are gettin money from the company for their performance,whice at best is lousy,why on earth should the membership be taken to the cleaner's for 2 more years.If they get for example Bob Redding just cash stock for a profit of 200,000 dallor's,this last Friday,and the AMT'S across the system have earn the company on contract's with outside companies to the tune of over 500 million dallors, profit and is projected to save and make the company even more this year,their is no sane reason we as a whole need to suck it up for 2 more years.You know they will reward them again next year.Their failure at running a airline does not mean I eat the problem.They stop taking it and start giving it to it's employee's thats the direction it need's to go.Buying new jet's will not solve the issue between American and it's employee's.Gerald Arpey must relized that he must stop hiding in his office each day,and start adressing the issue's at hand with his employee's,for it he thinks that low morale no pay raise's is the way to go,it is just a matter of time now,when the board/share holder's will pay him to leave.Remember for them it saw a 12-9 vote,they just need 4 more vote's and it goes to the floor.For us it's are retirement formula,it's are day to day expense's.If Jim Little thinks more job's will be save by passing this to the floor,when this fall hundred's of AMT'S will be laid off,he's is dreaming.Remember what the AMT's at NWA did a few year's back.They stood their ground,preventing a wage scale that would had done a serious blow to are industry as a whole,no union would have had any bargining power to speak of today.This airline would have lose control of it's company and be force into BK before it could strip us of are wage's and benefit's,not one count them not one would allow themselves to lose their pay/AIP they would take a poison pill before surrendering to the court's there power over this airline.Think outsid the box,they like what they are doing.Taking money from the employee's and giving it to themselve's.Like Mr.Hill over at APA stated this trend must stop now and now is that time.If any local President's spew's that statement on the floor,impeach asap,motion for someone else to go to negioation's that day forward.Unity shoulder to shoulder wear them down each day.Restore what was are's,nothing less.If AMT's must be laided off so be it,I have asked before lower senority AMT's if it would be worth it and they have said yes.They know they would be back their is to much work,for this company to handle.Maintence is making money for this carrier,saving this company money.No giveback's and take all that was took.Just look at the amount of money that has been pay-out to the upper management since the restructing took place,clue in the million's.Shot the horse,what horse that was a donkey.Shut this airline down for a day and AMR's board would have a emergency meeting to discuss why in the world our the employee's are so upset Mr.Arpey.And it's not hate it just fair.

What you saw NWA do was permanently replace its mechanics with scab labor, and the striking mechanics took a much worse deal to end their strike that had no chance in hell to begin with. Of the 800-1000 mechs at NWA now, less than 100 are not scab labor. Is that the knid of situation you would put the American mechanics in?

All of the spoken toughness of the NWA mechanics through AMFA was nullified by the company's preparations. For all the grief it caused the mechanics, there was no serious harm done to NWA due to their preparations I mentioned and NWA's political connections to keep the FAA off their collective posterior. There was, however, plenty of damage done to our trade and the wage scales. NWA was successful. Put down the Kool Aid.

FYI - the AMR board of directors knows we're bent - and they don't give a damn.

Go ahead and vent - it makes me feel better also from time to time. Just don't start believing your own bovine fecal matter.