TWU negotiations.........what?

[AANOTOK]

Hey Bob,

I know your plate is full and this is not your area of negotiations, but I cannot seem to get any info from our "elected" leaders. The ones who do actually speak say "our hands are tied with the NMB".

So us Fleet folks sit here hearing we have a T/A in the companies eyes and we don't in the International's eyes. The NMB has grounded us for damn near a year now and the members are losing out while the company is sipping champagne at our expense.

I guess my question is, have you heard anything on how Fleet will get the ball rolling again, or is it a T/A and we will just sit until the International brings it to the members. (Not that they should).

 

[Bob Owens]

Hey Bob,

I know your plate is full and this is not your area of negotiations, but I cannot seem to get any info from our "elected" leaders. The ones who do actually speak say "our hands are tied with the NMB".

So us Fleet folks sit here hearing we have a T/A in the companies eyes and we don't in the International's eyes. The NMB has grounded us for damn near a year now and the members are losing out while the company is sipping champagne at our expense.

I guess my question is, have you heard anything on how Fleet will get the ball rolling again, or is it a T/A and we will just sit until the International brings it to the members. (Not that they should).

I havent, and yes their hands are tied.

My feeling is that they are waiting for the mechanics to succumb to the waiting game and hope that inflation does their job for them, figuring that once that happened, which I will do everything I can to prevent, that the rest will fold.

Here's a little Inspirational film clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dib2-HBsF08

Are they yelling in JFK? Are they yelling In DFW? How about MIA? ORD? LAX? LGA? BOS? ATL? SFO? etc etc

Maybe we should.

 

[eolesen]

Good luck trying to use past practice in a courtroom, Bob. If it isn't in writing, the judge doesn't care in the same way an arbitrator might. Qatar was mentioned elsewhere, so my apologies for inferring that you were referring to that instead of BA.

The fact still remains that the operating airline is the one responsible for selecting who touches their airplane, not the leaseholder of the terminal, and if the lease's language is similar to what I've seen elsewhere, past practice can't supercede the terms of the lease. Again, I suggest you actually do a little legwork there, instead of making dangerous assumptions that make the local look like fools.

 

[Barfbag]

Good luck trying to use past practice in a courtroom, Bob. If it isn't in writing, the judge doesn't care in the same way an arbitrator might. Qatar was mentioned elsewhere, so my apologies for inferring that you were referring to that instead of BA.

The fact still remains that the operating airline is the one responsible for selecting who touches their airplane, not the leaseholder of the terminal, and if the lease's language is similar to what I've seen elsewhere, past practice can't supercede the terms of the lease. Again, I suggest you actually do a little legwork there, instead of making dangerous assumptions that make the local look like fools.

Sir Willie Walsh is watching, tread carefully.

 

[odie01]

Bob Owens,


We did not get the release as we requested, and Jack said that we can still reach an agreement even though the company is going the opposite direction, what are we going to do in June when the company continues their stall tactics? TIA

 

[MCI transplant]

I havent, and yes their hands are tied.

My feeling is that they are waiting for the mechanics to succumb to the waiting game and hope that inflation does their job for them, figuring that once that happened, which I will do everything I can to prevent, that the rest will fold.

Here's a little Inspirational film clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dib2-HBsF08http://airlineforums.com/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif
Are they yelling in JFK? Are they yelling In DFW? How about MIA? ORD? LAX? LGA? BOS? ATL? SFO? etc etc

Maybe we should.

<_< --------

 

[Birdman]

IMHO, the TWU has never been in a better tactical position than exists right now due to critical multi-fleet drop dead maintenance check issues compounded daily by the lack of productivity of an exasperated workforce, a shortage of replacement AMT's, and the busy travel season approaching. Stress on operational manAAgement must be at an all time high. Due to the airtight secrecy of negotiations, we'll never know if the TWU has recommended productivity enhancements backed by accountability, which is what AA must have in order to survive. We in production are powerless on our own at this time to make a difference by working harder to prove our worth. What we need are salesmen who knows the potential and value of our labor and for AA, using the power of its workforce to provide a solid plan to put its maintenance program back on track. What's interesting is that even Southwest in 2008 had the same desire as AA's negotiators in regard to cost neutrality, but took a totally different path.

"The Company (WN) is pleased with this cost neutral contract which delivers raises in exchange
for work rule improvements and contract flexibility."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/12/05/idUS17279+05-Dec-2008+PRN2008120

I would certainly be receptive to work rule improvements in exchange for, not the AMFA contract, but job security for all employees on payroll and a substantial raise with enhance benefits. It seems AA is so focused on costs that it cannot even fathom the benefits of cost savings realized by real productivity gains. If I were in upper management I would be demanding answers from my negotiators as to why more progress has not been made to get my deteriorating fleet's maintenance program on solid footing so I could concentrate on running the business of flying customers safely from point A to point B without distraction.

 

[Slopoke]

but job security for all employees on payroll

Job security is an airline that continues to operate and senority on the part of the employee. Anything else is just wishful thinking.

 

[aafsc]

IMHO, the TWU has never been in a better tactical position than exists right now due to critical multi-fleet drop dead maintenance check issues compounded daily by the lack of productivity of an exasperated workforce, a shortage of replacement AMT's, and the busy travel season approaching. Stress on operational manAAgement must be at an all time high. Due to the airtight secrecy of negotiations, we'll never know if the TWU has recommended productivity enhancements backed by accountability, which is what AA must have in order to survive. We in production are powerless on our own at this time to make a difference by working harder to prove our worth. What we need are salesmen who knows the potential and value of our labor and for AA, using the power of its workforce to provide a solid plan to put its maintenance program back on track. What's interesting is that even Southwest in 2008 had the same desire as AA's negotiators in regard to cost neutrality, but took a totally different path.

"The Company (WN) is pleased with this cost neutral contract which delivers raises in exchange
for work rule improvements and contract flexibility."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/12/05/idUS17279+05-Dec-2008+PRN2008120

I would certainly be receptive to work rule improvements in exchange for, not the AMFA contract, but job security for all employees on payroll and a substantial raise with enhance benefits. It seems AA is so focused on costs that it cannot even fathom the benefits of cost savings realized by real productivity gains. If I were in upper management I would be demanding answers from my negotiators as to why more progress has not been made to get my deteriorating fleet's maintenance program on solid footing so I could concentrate on running the business of flying customers safely from point A to point B without distraction.

Here are the "work rule improvements and contract flexibility" that were exchanged for a "cost neutral contract". Allowing even more heavy overhaul lines to go to a country where a ten year experienced mechanic makes $5 an hour and an "OSM" makes $2 an hour.

www.kirotv.com/news/27915082/detail.html

 

[FWAAA]

Here are the "work rule improvements and contract flexibility" that were exchanged for a "cost neutral contract". Allowing even more heavy overhaul lines to go to a country where a ten year experienced mechanic makes $5 an hour and an "OSM" makes $2 an hour.

www.kirotv.com/news/27915082/detail.html

Exactly. Should be required reading/viewing for everyone. Link needs fixed; here it is with the http added: http://www.kirotv.com/news/27915082/detail.html

Not all that difficult to see how WN pays its stateside AMFA-represented mechanics such a high hourly wage: those wages are balanced by the fact that its "Tulsa" is located in El Salvador. AA's Tulsa employees make high hourly wages for doing what other airlines get for rock-bottom prices, and, of course, they would like even higher wages than they're getting now (who wouldn't?). AA employs about four times as many maintenance personnel as WN.

UPS with its $50/hour? They don't insource their heavy overhaul. UPS has only about 1,000 AMTs on the payroll, only about 11% of AA's AMT workforce.

JetBlue maintains 161 airplanes with just 491 mechanics, according to their latest 10-K. Not surprising since so much of B6's maintenance needs are outsourced:

The work performed on our fleet is divided into four general categories of maintenance: aircraft line, aircraft heavy, component and power plant. The bulk of line maintenance requirements are handled by JetBlue technicians and inspectors and consist of daily checks, overnight and weekly checks, A checks, diagnostics and routine repairs. All other maintenance activity is sub-contracted to qualified business partner maintenance, repair and overhaul organizations.

Aircraft heavy maintenance checks consist of a series of more complex tasks that take from one to four weeks to accomplish. The typical frequency for these events is once every 15 months. We send our aircraft to Aeroman facilities in El Salvador, Pemco in Tampa, Florida and Embraer Aircraft Maintenance Services in Nashville, Tennessee. In all cases this work is performed with oversight by JetBlue personnel.

Component and power plant maintenance, repairs and overhauls on equipment such as engines, auxiliary power units, landing gears, pumps and avionic computers are performed by a number of different FAA-approved repair stations. For example, maintenance of our V2500 series engines on our Airbus A320 aircraft is performed under a 15-year service agreement with MTU Maintenance Hannover GmbH in Germany. Most of our maintenance service agreements are based on a fixed cost per flying hour.

So all B and C checks are outsourced at B6. If AA matched JetBlue's maintenance program, AA would need, at most, 2,500 to 3,000 AMTs (perhaps even fewer). If Tulsa and AFW were exchanged for non-certified mechanics and helpers making $2 to $5 per hour in El Salvador, AA could easily pay the remaining line mechanics $50/hr.

 

[Birdman]

I thank God non of you are negotiating in my behalf. I see the great potential of a skilled group of professionals that can work circles around any third world country bumpkin. AA has chosen to keep it's maintenance in house and it's our leadership that has failed to manage and exploit the positive benefits, giving ammunition to those of you who claim it's best to outsource.

 

[Hopeful]

Exactly. Should be required reading/viewing for everyone. Link needs fixed; here it is with the http added: http://www.kirotv.com/news/27915082/detail.html

Not all that difficult to see how WN pays its stateside AMFA-represented mechanics such a high hourly wage: those wages are balanced by the fact that its "Tulsa" is located in El Salvador. AA's Tulsa employees make high hourly wages for doing what other airlines get for rock-bottom prices, and, of course, they would like even higher wages than they're getting now (who wouldn't?). AA employs about four times as many maintenance personnel as WN.

UPS with its $50/hour? They don't insource their heavy overhaul. UPS has only about 1,000 AMTs on the payroll, only about 11% of AA's AMT workforce.

JetBlue maintains 161 airplanes with just 491 mechanics, according to their latest 10-K. Not surprising since so much of B6's maintenance needs are outsourced:



So all B and C checks are outsourced at B6. If AA matched JetBlue's maintenance program, AA would need, at most, 2,500 to 3,000 AMTs (perhaps even fewer). If Tulsa and AFW were exchanged for non-certified mechanics and helpers making $2 to $5 per hour in El Salvador, AA could easily pay the remaining line mechanics $50/hr.

Please tell me, FWAAA......If this is the route AA wants to go, why do they not come out and say..."IF YOU MECHANICS WANT UPS WAGES, THEN WE NEED TO OURSOURCE LIKE THEY DO..?

You are AAsuming way too much if you think that AA would pay us like UPS, or even SWA for that matter if we gave away our store..

Keep in mind, UPS, SWA, FedEX does not staff out stations like AA does. We probably have more mechanics at line stations than they do in total.

If this is the wAAy AA wants to go, then simply grandfather and protect every current AA mechanic....and move on with future employees. At least they'll know what they're getting into and can decide before hand whether or not they want to join this outstanding organization.

 

[Bob Owens]

Exactly. Should be required reading/viewing for everyone. Link needs fixed; here it is with the http added: http://www.kirotv.com/news/27915082/detail.html

Not all that difficult to see how WN pays its stateside AMFA-represented mechanics such a high hourly wage: those wages are balanced by the fact that its "Tulsa" is located in El Salvador. AA's Tulsa employees make high hourly wages for doing what other airlines get for rock-bottom prices, and, of course, they would like even higher wages than they're getting now (who wouldn't?). AA employs about four times as many maintenance personnel as WN.

UPS with its $50/hour? They don't insource their heavy overhaul. UPS has only about 1,000 AMTs on the payroll, only about 11% of AA's AMT workforce.

JetBlue maintains 161 airplanes with just 491 mechanics, according to their latest 10-K. Not surprising since so much of B6's maintenance needs are outsourced:



So all B and C checks are outsourced at B6. If AA matched JetBlue's maintenance program, AA would need, at most, 2,500 to 3,000 AMTs (perhaps even fewer). If Tulsa and AFW were exchanged for non-certified mechanics and helpers making $2 to $5 per hour in El Salvador, AA could easily pay the remaining line mechanics $50/hr.

What percentage of WN's aircraft are sent overseas? I believe its a very limited amount and its spelled out in their contract. Just because Aeroman pays their mechanics between and $5/hr that doesnt mean thats what the carriers that send their planes there pay.

I believe UPS has language that all heavy work is done in the USA and they only own 200 planes.

Also not suprising that Jet Blue has so few planes because they only have new narrowbody aircraft. Jet Blue recently raised what they pay mechanics in the NorthEast to $38 because they were having trouble getting and retaining mechanics.

UAL says that 13% of their total operating costs in 2007(when fuel was cheaper) were for outsourced maintenance services, they outsource around half their maintenance, so roughly 26% of their operating costs would be for maint. They cant be saving much. In the recent TA they agreed to bring more work back in house, the only problem is a lot of the guys are declining recall. Having found other jobs and/or relocted to cheaper areas of the country they, and their experience and expertise, are no longer available.


What many seem to leave out is that most of the growth in this industry will be outside of the USA. That most of the outsourced work is not sent overseas, its sent domestically and that other countries still send their aircraft to the US for work.

 

[FWAAA]

Please tell me, FWAAA......If this is the route AA wants to go, why do they not come out and say..."IF YOU MECHANICS WANT UPS WAGES, THEN WE NEED TO OURSOURCE LIKE THEY DO..?

I don't know, but I'm guessing that AA likes having its cake and eating it, too. AA gets the higher quality insourced overhaul that it's always had (better quality, quicker turn times, etc). Plus, AA has the benefit of never being featured in articles detailing the nonskilled mechanics working on WN, B6, US, DL and other airlines' planes in third world countries. As I've said before, at the current wage mix, AA's maintenance costs are not all that much out of line. The line mechanics are grossly underpaid while the overhaul mechanics make nearly as much money as probably any overhaul (non-line) airframe mechanics in the western hemisphere.

You are AAsuming way too much if you think that AA would pay us like UPS, or even SWA for that matter if we gave away our store..

If Owens and the others couldn't negotiate at least WN-wages for 2,500 line mechanics (assuming that AA outsourced all heavy airframe overhaul), then your negotiators are worthless (as worthless as the worthless union) and should be replaced.

Keep in mind, UPS, SWA, FedEX does not staff out stations like AA does. We probably have more mechanics at line stations than they do in total.

I realize that. Of course AA will need many more line mechanics per aircraft than a cargo-carrier (cargo planes have very few reading lights that need fixed and have very few passenger seats that break, etc). Likewise, AA, with its mixed fleet, will require more line mechanics per plane than WN, with just two fleet types. I took that into account in estimating 2,500 to 3,000 line mechanics (where AA ships out everything beyond A checks, like B6).

If this is the wAAy AA wants to go, then simply grandfather and protect every current AA mechanic....and move on with future employees. At least they'll know what they're getting into and can decide before hand whether or not they want to join this outstanding organization.

Ideally, AA would offer a realistic buyout to rid itself of the older, illiterate slugs as well. Problem is (as Bob Owens has pointed out) is that there is current shortage of A&P holders. Of course, outsourcing some Tulsa-activities would immediately create a large pool of qualified mechanics who could work the line and probably would if offered $45/hr or more.

 

[FWAAA]

UAL says that 13% of their total operating costs in 2007(when fuel was cheaper) were for outsourced maintenance services, they outsource around half their maintenance, so roughly 26% of their operating costs would be for maint. They cant be saving much.

Those numbers don't add up. In 2007, UAL spent $1.166 billion on Aircraft maintenance materials and outside repairs. That amounted to just 6.1% of its $19.106 billion of total operating expenses. No doubt someone has misinterpreted the 13% figure. Perhaps total maintenance expenses were 13% of total operating expenses? Even that would seem high, since that would mean another $1.318 billion in maintenance wages, which is unbelievable considering that total wage and salary expense in 2007 was just $4.261 billion. In 2007, UAL employed just 5,551 mechanics and related. If each one of those guys cost UAL $100k (I doubt they were that expensive), then UAL's inhouse AMTs cost UAL another $555 million.

To compare, AMR spent $1.057 billion on Aircraft maintenance materials and outside repairs in 2007, less than UAL (no kidding, given UAL's level of outsourcing). That amounted to just 4.8% of AMR's total operating expenses of $21.970 billion in 2007. AMR had probably about double the number of mechanics and related in 2007, and if each one cost AMR $100k (again, an overly generous estimate), then AMR spent about $1.1 billion on its inhouse AMTs.

Bottom line: No way did UAL spend 13% of its operating expenses on total maintenance, let alone on outsourced maintenance. Your claimed percentages don't add up. UAL spent 26% of its operating expenses on total maintenance in 2007? Not a chance in hell. 26% would equal $4.967 billion, just a few dollars less than UAL spent on fuel that year. Nope, UAL did not spend nearly $5 billion on maintenance in 2007. Thanks for playing.

In the recent TA they agreed to bring more work back in house, the only problem is a lot of the guys are declining recall. Having found other jobs and/or relocted to cheaper areas of the country they, and their experience and expertise, are no longer available.

I don't doubt that. UAL cut loose thousands of AMTs in OAK and IND. The ones that went to work for AAR in Indy might return, but perhaps they value stability over a crappy UAL that let them go several years ago.