TWU negotiations.........what?

[Bob Owens]

I guess I would have to read it. I have read and signed some confidentiality agreements before and never saw any language that got me that upset. After all, it IS a confidentiality agreement.

At any rate, even if they just wanted you there to blow smoke up your ass, the local presidents should be intelligent enough to recognize that. If they were to let something slip that would allow you to make some progress then you are better off for being there. I guess I always figured more knowledge was better than less. The trick is to interpret what you learn correctly.

You would hope that but lets remember what was brought back last Summer, and what could have been brought back the Summer before. I realize that you AE guys bought a POS contract recently (your ramp guys rejected theirs)but ours included many new concessions, SMAs, the ability to declare any station a "Maintenence Base", Crew Chief Permanent Probation, the elimination of Prefunding, the elimination of Defined Benifit Pension for New Hires etc, etc. As I mentioned before, the June 09 Presentation was used by certain Presidents (who months later were given International titles at the Convention) to try and cause a panic "Lets show the sixth floor that we are serious about filling those white spaces". And the got the majority to agree. We were told that an addtional 1200 jobs would be lost by 2012. The spaces ended up filling themselves without further concesions and now they are looking to add 900 heads this year alone.

The fact is the letter is a contract, a contract without negotiations, the terms are unilateral and we have a right to ask for that information without signing a one way deal. In this case I have no idea what the company wants to talk to us about, but they want me to sign a blank check. The idea that I would have information that could influence negotiations and not be able to explain to the membership why things should go one way or the other until AA gives me permission is ludicrous, I'm not doing it.

The company wants to give us this info, usually as a means of getting buy in from the union. Last year it was support for the One World alliances, the Union gave it(despite two years of unproductive negotiations) and now we are finding that the implied benifits are not materializing. One case in point, many of the FSC Presidents were under the belief that as the One World partners started flying out of the AA terminals that their guys would get the work, thats not the case, in NY the Union was told that they have to bid for the work if they want a chance at getting it. Once again, the union spends its political capital (aquired with COPE Funds) to support AA and AA turns around and screws them. They would have had that option without spending the members COPE contributions on getting anti-trust immunity for the company. If the alliance hadnt been approved then AA would have had to get their own planes to do the route if they really wanted it and then the work woulld automatically be theirs. Without the alliances AA would have to grow internally instead of externally. In fact thats one of AA claims as to why they dont need to grow internally like Delta and UAL, because they are growing through alliances, alliances that dont provide jobs for us.

I agree that information is a valuable tool, but on the company side the decision makers are given all the information and then they are telling us they will share what they chose to share and we can not share it with all our decision makers-the members. We can not even try to validate that info and can only take their word for it.

 

[will fix for food]

Fair enough

 

[Interested]

that info that AA probably wants to share is that we only lost 97M. in the 4th quarter. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/American-Airlines-parent-AMR-apf-2103043415.html?x=0&.v=1

 

[toroshark]

that info that AA probably wants to share is that we only lost 97M. in the 4th quarter. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/American-Airlines-parent-AMR-apf-2103043415.html?x=0&.v=1

Then why the letter of confidentiality if it is public knowledge?

 

[Frank Szabo]

Then why the letter of confidentiality if it is public knowledge?

"'Tis better to have and not need than need and not have".
Anon.

 

[Bob Owens]

Then why the letter of confidentiality if it is public knowledge?

Simple, its an assertion of dominance by the company, making the signer subordinate to management. You have to clear it with them before you can speak.

In reality what is shared is irellevant, do you really think they would share anything of importance? Its the fact of what was agreed to and how the agreement took place thats important.

Could you imagine a member or a reporter asking a union official about an issue that was discused and the Union leader saying, "I have to clear it with management before I can answer you"? Some have the attitude of "Screw them, I'll say what I want and let them try and come after me", thats fine, but I would rather say "I aint signing it".

 

[Frank Szabo]

Simple, its an assertion of dominance by the company, making the signer subordinate to management. You have to clear it with them before you can speak.

In reality what is shared is irellevant, do you really think they would share anything of importance? Its the fact of what was agreed to and how the agreement took place thats important.

Could you imagine a member or a reporter asking a union official about an issue that was discused and the Union leader saying, "I have to clear it with management before I can answer you"? Some have the attitude of "Screw them, I'll say what I want and let them try and come after me", thats fine, but I would rather say "I aint signing it".

Actually, it's probably to allow for plausible deniability should something get out that's unfavorable to the company's (and that of their wholly owned subsidiary, the TWU) position.

As with the latest round of WikiLeaks, all the doom and gloom warned about was no more than an attempt to wipe the egg from government faces. Confidentiality agreements allow the company and union to make threats and sue if they are "defamed" (ergo, someone tells the truth).

 

[strikeforce]

Simple, its an assertion of dominance by the company, making the signer subordinate to management. You have to clear it with them before you can speak.

In reality what is shared is irellevant, do you really think they would share anything of importance? Its the fact of what was agreed to and how the agreement took place thats important.

Could you imagine a member or a reporter asking a union official about an issue that was discused and the Union leader saying, "I have to clear it with management before I can answer you"? Some have the attitude of "Screw them, I'll say what I want and let them try and come after me", thats fine, but I would rather say "I aint signing it".

Confidentiality agreements serve no purpose in negotiations. First, the TWU Presidents are elected by the membership, and unless the information provided by the company relates to intellectual property the company wants to protect, all information passed to the other group should be made available to the membership. Period. Let me remind everyone involved in these negotiations.....you work for us!

The TWU is no different than a sports agent working on behalf of the athlete. If the agent consistantly brings back concessionary agreements.....at some point the player will lose interest in that agent and look elsewhere. This is happening to the TWU.....slowly but surely. I don't know if AMP is the answer.....however, any other union beats the TWU at this point. The members feel hopeless and don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. It's absolutely pathetic that we are going on 8 years of concessions. I don't think there's an organization out there that can claim this prize.

 

[Tex-Mech]

It's absolutely pathetic that we are going on 8 years of concessions. I don't think there's an organization out there that can claim this prize.

IAM was a close 2nd.

 

[strikeforce]

IAM was a close 2nd.

It goes to show you how weak AFL-CIO affiliated unions are against large corporations. Especially weak, considering that a Democratic president invited TWU President Jim Little to his inauguration, and we still can't get anything done in 2.5 years, and with the help of the NMB. Goes to show you that most organized labor is simply about dues collections, and not about representation. I've been at AA for over 20 years and I've endured 18.5 years of concessionary deals and 1.5 years of AMFA negotiated good years.....just before and after 9/11. However, labor continued to collect.

p.s. Please don't tell anyone outside the airline industry about the number of bad to good years......they might think you're crazy.

 

[Frank Szabo]

It goes to show you how weak AFL-CIO affiliated unions are against large corporations. Especially weak, considering that a Democratic president invited TWU President Jim Little to his inauguration, and we still can't get anything done in 2.5 years, and with the help of the NMB. Goes to show you that most organized labor is simply about dues collections, and not about representation. I've been at AA for over 20 years and I've endured 18.5 years of concessionary deals and 1.5 years of AMFA negotiated good years.....just before and after 9/11. However, labor continued to collect.

p.s. Please don't tell anyone outside the airline industry about the number of bad to good years......they might think you're crazy.

It has nothing to do with the AFL-CIO affiliation but much more to do with the willingness of those elected to union offices to "strike a deal" with the company - ie, willing to be paid off by the company to work for them - not much different than this country's politicians working for the highest bidder after being placed in office by an ignorant electorate.

 

[odie01]

It goes to show you how weak AFL-CIO affiliated unions are against large corporations. Especially weak, considering that a Democratic president invited TWU President Jim Little to his inauguration, and we still can't get anything done in 2.5 years, and with the help of the NMB. Goes to show you that most organized labor is simply about dues collections, and not about representation. I've been at AA for over 20 years and I've endured 18.5 years of concessionary deals and 1.5 years of AMFA negotiated good years.....just before and after 9/11. However, labor continued to collect.

p.s. Please don't tell anyone outside the airline industry about the number of bad to good years......they might think you're crazy.

The feeling is mutual SF, I to have over 20 years with this sorry union, and finally woke up after the last TA. If you haven't been to the AMP website yet, please go there and register. It's time to get off the sidelines and do something, we are close to resolving the big problem.

http://www.ampnational.org/

 

[strikeforce]

It has nothing to do with the AFL-CIO affiliation but much more to do with the willingness of those elected to union offices to "strike a deal" with the company - ie, willing to be paid off by the company to work for them - not much different than this country's politicians working for the highest bidder after being placed in office by an ignorant electorate.

How true! Can't really argue with your statement. I just want to point out that organizations affiliated with the AFL-CIO contribute dues money through COPE with the belief that the people at the top are working for them...i.e. lobbying for them, when in reality the money is being split between the people at the top and your politicians.....and the little guy gets screwed at the end. Lets call it a legalized Ponzi scheme!

 

[Bob Owens]

Confidentiality agreements serve no purpose in negotiations. First, the TWU Presidents are elected by the membership, and unless the information provided by the company relates to intellectual property the company wants to protect, all information passed to the other group should be made available to the membership. Period. Let me remind everyone involved in these negotiations.....you work for us!

The TWU is no different than a sports agent working on behalf of the athlete. If the agent consistantly brings back concessionary agreements.....at some point the player will lose interest in that agent and look elsewhere. This is happening to the TWU.....slowly but surely. I don't know if AMP is the answer.....however, any other union beats the TWU at this point. The members feel hopeless and don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. It's absolutely pathetic that we are going on 8 years of concessions. I don't think there's an organization out there that can claim this prize.

The Confidentiality Agreement in question is not specifically directed at the Negotiations Committee, its directed at the Presidents Council, it just so happens that the Presidents also sit on the Negotiating committees, but so do non-Presidents.

As far as "the prize" actually the unions at USAIR should get first prize, they gave their first round of concessions outside of Bankruptcy in 2002, then went for a few more in BK to catch up to us. They are making less today than they were nearly 9 years ago.

In reality all the unions, affiliated or not, did a pretty lousy job since 2002, APLA, APA, AFA, APFA, CWA, IBT, IAM and TWU all failed their memberships. Instead of standing together, as we often see our union brothers do in Europe each union just lined up their membership for massive concessions and did nothing to stop it and none of them have been successful at restoring what was taken away, most have been negotiating since 2008 as well or settled for marginal improvements to the concessions.

The Unions should have told the government that if a Judge can set a price on our labor then he can set a price on Fuel, parts , landing fees, interests rates and banks fees etc. If flying is a public necessity then the burden should have been spread to all parties, not just the workers. Since we gave concessions all those other parties have seen a windfall, where do you think all the extra billion$ they are bringing in, plus all the billions thay arent paying for to workers, is going? It going to provide record profits for the oil companies, double digit fee increases at the airports and big price increases on parts along with usury rates to the banks. The airlines are bringing in Billions more than ever before with less workers who in many cases are working under court imposed concessions and simply sending it to those other parties.

We all should have walked off the Job the day the Judge ruled against the workers at USAIR and confiscated their careers for the enrichement of Airline Executives, oil companies, Banks, Airports and other vendors. Our Unions should have led us in protest but IRRC every one of those Unions endorsed concessions yet if you look at the LM2s of those Unions they did not believe so strongly in concessions that they cut their own pay in solidaritry. I'd like to see one that makes less today than they did in 2002.

 

[strikeforce]

The Confidentiality Agreement in question is not specifically directed at the Negotiations Committee, its directed at the Presidents Council, it just so happens that the Presidents also sit on the Negotiating committees, but so do non-Presidents.

As far as "the prize" actually the unions at USAIR should get first prize, they gave their first round of concessions outside of Bankruptcy in 2002, then went for a few more in BK to catch up to us. They are making less today than they were nearly 9 years ago.

In reality all the unions, affiliated or not, did a pretty lousy job since 2002, APLA, APA, AFA, APFA, CWA, IBT, IAM and TWU all failed their memberships. Instead of standing together, as we often see our union brothers do in Europe each union just lined up their membership for massive concessions and did nothing to stop it. We are the ones saying thank you sir may I have another, the only thing is they still didnt let us into the house.

They should have told the government that if a Judge can set a price on our labor then he can set a price on Fuel, parts , landing fees, interests rates and fees etc. If flying is a public necessity then the burden should have been spread to all parties, not just the workers. We vall should have walked off the Job the day the Judge ruled against the workers at USAIR and confiscated their careers for the enrichement of Airline Executives, oil companies, Airport and other vendors.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdFLPn30dvQ

Bob, the one industry that can paralyze this nation is the airline industry. This presents huge leaverage to union leaders, such as yourself, to apply enormous pressure on management to come to the table and negotiate in good faith. I just don't undertand why our leadership continuously fails to use this leaverage to achieve a fair agreement. There are 10,000 soldiers waiting for your word, and I gaurantee AA management will buckle under pressure. It's very simple.....just do your JOB VERBATIM! No need to picket or strike.