TWU negotiations.........what?

[odie01]

Is John Donnelly our 160K a year twu economist pushing this top secret meeting with the company? After all, didn't he come up with our consession package in 2003 FOR AA ? Wasn't Donnelly quoted as saying, "Airlines need to contract out more maintenance to be profitable?" What about our legal council, whoever he his, did he once work for AA? Is he pushing for this meeting?

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

odie, My point is Bob is not utilizing the members of his negotiation team. Stating his position here as if he works alone....

"Utilizing the members of his negotiation team."? Oh, you mean the YES voters who decided to allow a profession killer of a t/a to come to the floor? Or the "twu international negotiation" team?

Bob is doing what his membership ELECTED him to do... fight for us. It is a shame not all of the negotiating team are like Bob. Those who fall back on "I'm not the gate keeper." are looking for excuses to account for not fighting when fighting is what is needed.

 

[Birdman]

So we take your position and don't send Bob and the negotiating team to the presentation only so we can continue to waste our time here and speculate, "what if"......

You actually think we peons have any say in who gets sent where? I would wager the internAAtional is all for this presentation and probably already knows what's in it.

 

[FWAAA]

Isn't the next Financial Disclosure due out soon? My guess, AMR brought in excess of $22 billion for FY 2010. Around $5 billion more than 2003 with at least 30,000 less employees and 200 less airplanes. Thats a windfall of at least $7 billion dollars. But they have no money for us. Probably enough to paint every subway car and bus in NYC though! Maybe put their name on a few more sports arenas as well!

On Wednesday, AA will report the 2010 numbers. $7 billion "windfall?" That's a good one.

AMR revenue in 2003 was $17.44 billion. 2003 Fuel expense was $2.77 billion.

Assume that 2010 revenue is $22.44 billion (my guess). Fuel expense will be about $6.5 billion.

So 2010 revenue will be about $5 billion more but fuel is about $3.75 billion more. That leaves about $1.25 billion, not $7 billion. 2003 showed a net loss of about $1.23 billion, about the same as this year's "windfall." Between increased fuel costs and 2003's net loss, that soaks up the $5 billion of increased revenues.

I'm not seeing any $7 billion "windfall," but you do. And now you're paranoid that AA is going to feed you lies by opening the books for you? You seriously think they're going to show you the secret "second set" of books and by virtue of the confidentiality agreement, you'll be gagged from telling anyone of your find? Uh-huh. I think I hear the helicopters coming . . .

Given that you're convinced that there's $7 billion of unaccounted cash from 2010 alone (not to mention all the secret cash from 2004-2009), I can't believe you'd balk at signing the agreement so you could see just where AA has been hiding all the money all these years.

 

[toroshark]

If a presentation is being offered by AA to the TWU and the local presidents with the caveat of confidentiality, then one can assume that it most likely is not great news that will benefit the TWU membership as a whole. There would be no need for the Intl. and our elected local presidents to keep it secret from us if it were to benefit us. If it were beneficial to the membership then AA would want that information given to the employees that move the metal. Furthermore, anything AA has to present the TWU at this time absolutely would have some pertinence to the ongoing contract negotiations. There is no plausible scenario that wouldnt. Since the Intl. is a dues collecting corporation, its intrest is maintaining the stream of revenue from the membership's checks. The local presidents are elected. If a local prez. is truly out for his membership's intrest and not looking to get on the Intl. gravy train then why would he want to not keep his members informed about their monetary livelihood? AA chose to stall this current round of contracts out not the union. The NMB is involved now due to this fact. AA probably isnt liking the way negotiations are going now that the Intl. isnt running it lock, stock, and barrel. Whatever doom and gloom or threats of lost jobs that will be presented to aid AA in their quest for a zero-cost contract should be made aware to the membership that will vote on it. Does anyone think that Peyton Manning or Tom Brady's agents talk to their respective teams and would sign any agreement to not let Manning or Brady know what was discussed? I realize that they are individuals and we are a group but the same should hold true.

 

[Bob Owens]

On Wednesday, AA will report the 2010 numbers. $7 billion "windfall?" That's a good one.

AMR revenue in 2003 was $17.44 billion. 2003 Fuel expense was $2.77 billion.

Assume that 2010 revenue is $22.44 billion (my guess). Fuel expense will be about $6.5 billion.

So 2010 revenue will be about $5 billion more but fuel is about $3.75 billion more. That leaves about $1.25 billion, not $7 billion. 2003 showed a net loss of about $1.23 billion, about the same as this year's "windfall." Between increased fuel costs and 2003's net loss, that soaks up the $5 billion of increased revenues.

I'm not seeing any $7 billion "windfall," but you do. And now you're paranoid that AA is going to feed you lies by opening the books for you? You seriously think they're going to show you the secret "second set" of books and by virtue of the confidentiality agreement, you'll be gagged from telling anyone of your find? Uh-huh. I think I hear the helicopters coming . . .

Given that you're convinced that there's $7 billion of unaccounted cash from 2010 alone (not to mention all the secret cash from 2004-2009), I can't believe you'd balk at signing the agreement so you could see just where AA has been hiding all the money all these years.

With an average cost of $65000 per employee(from a very old ATA estimate) what would eliminating 30,000 employees save? Around $2billion. How about 200 less aircraft, including a whole fleet and all the parts? That has to be a few hundred million right there as well. Subtract your $3 billion for fuel and it still leaves $4 billion more to play with than they had in 2003.

Opening the books? Hardly, we cant even get an answer as to how much they claim doing work in house costs/saves them. More than likely, as in the example I gave about the White Spaces in 2009, it will be a series of projections, geared towards giving us the most pessimistic picture they can paint, just like in June of 2009. Less than a year later the company admitted they had more work than they knew what to do with, straight through 2014 and six months after that announced that they needed 900 more heads. Another option may be that the company may try is to claim that they are ready to expand, and hire many more people, if, they can get them cheaply and hope that the lure of more dues will convince the Presidents to roll over in contract talks.

The company let out that they had a Billion dollar pension payment due last year, that turned out to be $500 million and the only reason it was that high was because they chose to put in zero in 2009.

Paranoid? Experienced is more like it. Do you really think that the company would give us information that would support higher demands? Would you?

 

[TWU informer]

This is standard boilerplate for a confidentiality agreement. Providing notice to the company gives the company a chance to attempt to quash any subpeona and try to prevent the disclosure of the confidential info. Probably in every confidentiality agreement I've ever seen.

How many have you seen and/or signed?

 

[TWU informer]

Paranoid? Experienced is more like it. Do you really think that the company would give us information that would support higher demands? Would you?

That's right Bob.You are not paranoid in my opinion.

You are dealing with management, make that AA Management, and that would make any intelligent sane person appear paranoid.

You stay the course and the rest of us will sit around without ALL the pertinent information and try to form accurate opinions and make correct decisions. Hard to do if WE don't have all the facts. Which we have never had.

IF the information that the company has to offer is to sway negotiators and influence negotiations, then they surley didn't learn from the last membership voting experience. It has now been proven that just because the International sells a T/A and just because negotiators favor the agreement, does not mean the membership votes yes. I wouldn't be shocked to find this is their strategy though, and it has often worked in the past. And never so fantastic as the "We are Going Bankrupt" confidentiallity agreements worked out to their favor.

TWU should hire a Law firm and negotiate their own terms of agreement to sign off on any confidentiality or just say NO.

 

[toroshark]

If AA trust me to maintain and repair critical and safety of flight items then why would they not trust me with information that would aid me in making a intelligent and rational decision when it comes time to vote on the next T/A? Why would my bargaining agent willingly and knowingly collude with AA (whose management are indisputably liars and thieves) to keep that information from me? Since the TWU Intl. is a dues collecting corporation it is up to strong, elected leaders of the locals to not engage in such activities. The ones that are not looking to "make their bones" so to speak to gain further compensation with an Intl. position that is. (eg. Phat Don, Steve Luis, etc.) This lack of transparency between the TWU Intl. and AA management is what leads to all of the AMP and AMFA crap. When we are fighting amongst ourselves the only winners are the previously mentioned liars and thieves. If AA has a presentation to make then let it be known to the membership, otherwise shut the hell up!

 

[Bob Owens]

That's right Bob.You are not paranoid in my opinion.

You are dealing with management, make that AA Management, and that would make any intelligent sane person appear paranoid.

You stay the course and the rest of us will sit around without ALL the pertinent information and try to form accurate opinions and make correct decisions. Hard to do if WE don't have all the facts. Which we have never had.

IF the information that the company has to offer is to sway negotiators and influence negotiations, then they surley didn't learn from the last membership voting experience. It has now been proven that just because the International sells a T/A and just because negotiators favor the agreement, does not mean the membership votes yes. I wouldn't be shocked to find this is their strategy though, and it has often worked in the past. And never so fantastic as the "We are Going Bankrupt" confidentiallity agreements worked out to their favor.

TWU should hire a Law firm and negotiate their own terms of agreement to sign off on any confidentiality or just say NO.

The first time I was presented with the Confidentiality Agreement I refused to sign it then floated it past our local lawyer. He advised against it, the liability was extreme, the information, even if it did have value could not be exploited and there was no guarantee that the information was in fact valid. In other words I would be assuming a huge liability but no value.

Lets say AA decided to start a huge lie, like they were on the verge of BK, they throw this in front of the Presidents Council, complete with figures, graphs etc,then it gets out into the Media and causes a stock panic, then when the truth comes out that it was just a negotiating ploy and AA is sued by various investors and the SEC. Well with the Confidentiality agreement the Union guy who let it out would be terminated and held liable, if the SEC subpeonaed him he would have to talk to the company before talking to the government, of course the company lawyers would then convince him that he should throw himself on his sword to save the company, then turn around in court and claim he was a disgruntled Ex-employee. However if they start a huge lie, get the Presidents to believe it, which would no doubt influence how they approach negotiations, and use the Confidentiality agreement to keep it from getting out, and exposed, they could end up with yet another concessionary contract. I think it would be geared more towards RAMP, because the majority of those Presidents refused to go forward with the TA but once one major group falls I think the company expects the rest will follow.After the damage was done and all the information given proved to be false what could the Presidents do? Cry foul? The company would simply claim that they simply gave the union projections, and everyone knows that projections are like, in "The Christmas Carol", just shadows of what may be, not what will be.

During Negotiations information is a valuable tool. In fact one tactic for labor is to demand all sorts of info, info that the company would need to produce to support their arguements but is averse to releasing to the public. Unions should never sign Confidentiality agreements because then the information loses its value. Employers often back off rather than release such info that would end up in the public domian, its something we have not done much of. For three years the company would throw out how we still do OH as their excuse as to why we should except inferior compensation, even some Union officials said the same thing, without producing any evidence whatsoever as to the cost to the company of doing it in house vs outsourcing, well this past session was the first time, since thanks to the change in the committee we can all talk, that I was able to challenge them on the Overhaul question. I have not recieved any figures as of yet. The behavior of the company is a good indicator of the truth, the fact that they have not only kept work in house but brought more work back in, despite being way over the contractually mandated headcount(System Protection). Currently we have around 1700 people without system protection, thats all work that could be sent out if the company could get it done cheaper, but the company isnt sending it out, in fact they plan to add 900 more heads this year. So there is value in keeping it in house, probably made up of several components, direct costs such as the labor and maintenance of facilities, plus the control, plus the quality. When the direct costs are given, the other two must be added as well. Once agian, the companies behavior is a better indicator than any figures they produce and agree to share.

 

[DallasConehead]

No doubt a doom and gloom meeting meant for crying poor due to rising fuel costs, all the while, the int is in collusion. I would not expect anything else, these types of doom and gloom meetings are the hallmark of AArpey and Co., meant to sway the masses into submission. The weak minds on the council will fear for the future and go along with and advocate the screwing we are all about to take.

The best thing you guys could do is tell them to pack sand and not go, but again, there are those pesky weak minded presidents (that aspire to higher glorious positions in the int) that believe the things AA and the int says, so, whatever, nothing changes you idiots.

The dog and pony show reigns supreme and you’ll all look like a bunch of monkeys trying to f a football. Go sign your confidentiality agreement, enjoy the donuts and be impotent.

 

[will fix for food]

I can't believe you wouldn't want to go and see what they have to say. If there is some useful info then you are better off. If there isn't just shrug and stay the present course. I guess I'm not really seeing the downside other than possibly a lost afternoon.

 

[Frank Szabo]

I can't believe you wouldn't want to go and see what they have to say. If there is some useful info then you are better off. If there isn't just shrug and stay the present course. I guess I'm not really seeing the downside other than possibly a lost afternoon.

A considerable amount of time and effort has been put forth by both the company and its defacto subsidiary, the TWU, to shape the minds of the workers since 2003 and this (whatever this is) doesn't appear to be any different.

The company and union should "work together", put their lies in writing and send it to our homes - to be read if and when we find the time for more of their lies.

BTW - I'm still waiting to hear what Burchette found while he had his hands in Romano's pockets ... were the pocket bottoms cut out?

 

[FWAAA]

BTW - I'm still waiting to hear what Burchette found while he had his hands in Romano's pockets ... were the pocket bottoms cut out?

The only thing in Romano's pockets were fingerprints from the oil companies - they got there first and picked his pockets clean to the tune of several billion dollars in additional fuel expenses.

 

[Frank Szabo]

The only thing in Romano's pockets were fingerprints from the oil companies - they got there first and picked his pockets clean to the tune of several billion dollars in additional fuel expenses.

Come on - we know that - quit being so serious.

You weren't at those meetings taking in all the promises from the Local 514 president trying to sell the company's agenda, on the same stage with Mr. Parmesian.