TWU Negotiations A Failed Strategy

[Bob Owens]

I would still like to know if Bob Owens or anyone else can predict how much this cycle of "Save the Profession" is going to cost me as it pertains TWU/AA Negotiations?

Clarify?

How do you save a profession that has demonstrated that 1000+ A&P Licensed AMT's will cross the picket line of a union on strike within the profession? Nobody seems to want to ever want to answer that question.

There were, according to the FAA, well over 300,000 certificate holders and it took NWA 18 months to recruit just over 1000 scabs. 0.333% of Licenced Mechanics became scabs. Are you claiming that the other 99.67% would also become scabs and the profession isnt worth saving because of the actions of one third of one percent? We both know that at the time there were several thousand mechanics that had been laid off out there and the majority chose not to scab. Are you claiming that Welders have a higher moral standing and can you produce anything that would bolster such a claim?

 

[TWU informer]

There were, according to the FAA, well over 300,000 certificate holders and it took NWA 18 months to recruit just over 1000 scabs. 0.333% of Licenced Mechanics became scabs. Are you claiming that the other 99.67% would also become scabs and the profession isnt worth saving because of the actions of one third of one percent? We both know that at the time there were several thousand mechanics that had been laid off out there and the majority chose not to scab. Are you claiming that Welders have a higher moral standing and can you produce anything that would bolster such a claim?

Throw all the numbers you want at it Bob. Throw all the analytical BS you want also. But the fact still remains and will always remain that 1000+ A&P Licensed Mechanics crossed that picket line and busted that union. All the while the Strikers, just like you were chanting and posting on these exact forums claiming that it couldn't be done.

I am not claiming anything regarding Welders. Where do you pick the Fly Crap out of the pepper?

RE: Cost for saving the profession this time.

Welders were offered parity in sklll premuim pay and Crew Chiefs an extra $1 per hour. Is that going to remain once you and your buddies are done saving the profession this time around?

 

[Bob Owens]

Throw all the numbers you want at it Bob. Throw all the analytical BS you want also. But the fact still remains and will always remain that 1000+ A&P Licensed Mechanics crossed that picket line and busted that union. All the while the Strikers, just like you were chanting and posting on these exact forums claiming that it couldn't be done.

I am not claiming anything regarding Welders. Where do you pick the Fly Crap out of the pepper?

RE: Cost for saving the profession this time.

Welders were offered parity in sklll premuim pay and Crew Chiefs an extra $1 per hour. Is that going to remain once you and your buddies are done saving the profession this time around?

And where is NWA today? The fact is that NWA did not get as many mechanics as they needed, their operation suffered and they were scooped up by Delta. One third of one percent became scabs, that puts your number in perspective. My intentions are to keep your premiums in place and more, but you were already a yes vote so I know I cant count on your support.You were happy enough with what was brought back. You fought to replace the TWU for years yet you voted in support of the TA. Sad to see how your fustrations have made you so bitter. You would rather see us all fail just so you can say you were right. Was your push for AMFA motivated by a desire to make workers lives better or something else ? You seem to dislike those who you sought to organize.

 

[TWU informer]

And where is NWA today? The fact is that NWA did not get as many mechanics as they needed, their operation suffered and they were scooped up by Delta. One third of one percent became scabs, that puts your number in perspective. My intentions are to keep your premiums in place and more, but you were already a yes vote so I know I cant count on your support.You were happy enough with what was brought back. You fought to replace the TWU for years yet you voted in support of the TA. Sad to see how your fustrations have made you so bitter. You would rather see us all fail just so you can say you were right. Was your push for AMFA motivated by a desire to make workers lives better or something else ? You seem to dislike those who you sought to organize.

You honestly believe NWA was scooped by Delta because of a shortage of Mechanics? Was America West and Continental short on AMT's too Bob? What about TWA were they short on AMT's? You have some strange way of twisting everything into an AMT world, and seem to never accept that other issues of the industry are relevant to any issue. Many of your post read as if you live in a different reality than most rational people discussing this industry, and even Pollitics.

That will cost you one day. Hopefully is dones't cost the rest of us too.

Voting YES on TA...

$580 per month raise, and I wasn't losing retirement medical. I votes Yes because it was satisfactory and my Wife was ill. Yes leave my part as is, including no further outsource of heavy overhaul, incease the signing bonus or get retro to pay for your delay and you can count on me to vote YES again Bob.

Most AMT had no problem with voting yes when the skill premiuim increased $1.55 more for THEM and left the rest of the skilled falling behind. It wasn't an issue for them at all, and even your Local I believe was a yes vote on that. Funny how that double standard exist when they are on the short end of the deal.

My motivation for pushing AMFA was mostly two fold. One no longer affiliated with the AFL-CIO and two remove the pitiful TWU from AA property. I liked the idea of all AMT's being in one union and still do. I liked the idea of experience recognition and still do. I liked the idea of elected National Officers and still do. I have no idea if that would make workers lives better or not. Many have a different defintion of better life than me or you. You pushed AMFA too, you were even removed from Office. Now you still work daily under an oath of alligience to that and are now in the inner circle of the problem. Does that make your motives questionable?

What I dislike is a group of workers that first blamed the Bus Drivers in New York City, then they blamed the Fleet Service Clerks, then they started blaming Tulsa. Now most claim they work in the elements, and under extreme pressure on the line so screw Tulsa and their weekends off and low cost of living. Don't tell me you have not read that type of BS here and heard it within your local. Every photo I have ever seen from your Local Bob actually shows a pretty damn nice hangar to work in. Does that roof leak and the doors not close on that one? Those class II stations likely have it worse but they are about history now. At any rate,the more you line guys open your mouths blaming Tulsa and screaming for a spin-off, the more I fear placing the membership in charge of the union. I know you personally have defended Overhaul, I have read it, but you are not the majority either.

I apologize for being bitter Bob. Unlike you, I do not play both sides of the fence. I WAS bitter when organizing AMFA and I AM bitter NOW.

How do you take an oath of allegiance to that which you know has been harmful to workers? I remember how you made fun of my Power Ppoint presentation back then too, so our relationship ins't really much different today than it was then. Sad to see how now that they gave you a little feeling of authority, you now defend that which you tried to remove. Do you really believe that because they placed you in a position of decision making that the TWU is better now and we will all benefit greatly? Fact is since I was bitter then and I am bitter now, you are the one that appears to have a different outlook today not me. My feelings have not changed much Bob. Have yours?

I suspect you are in for a real treat before these negotiations are over. We'll talk again then for sure. Best case scenario is other airlines and other unions of the industry improve our pay. But that was built into the TA to keep us moving with them anyway. Are you going to get a number one pay guarantee insead of a number two?

What do you figure the value of you and me still owning a defined pension that is still being funded is worth these days? What's that worth in dollars Bob?

 

[toroshark]

You honestly believe NWA was scooped by Delta because of a shortage of Mechanics? Was America West and Continental short on AMT's too Bob? What about TWA were they short on AMT's? You have some strange way of twisting everything into an AMT world, and seem to never accept that other issues of the industry are relevant to any issue. Many of your post read as if you live in a different reality than most rational people discussing this industry, and even Pollitics.

That will cost you one day. Hopefully is dones't cost the rest of us too.

Voting YES on TA...

$580 per month raise, and I wasn't losing retirement medical. I votes Yes because it was satisfactory and my Wife was ill. Yes leave my part as is, including no further outsource of heavy overhaul, incease the signing bonus or get retro to pay for your delay and you can count on me to vote YES again Bob.

Most AMT had no problem with voting yes when the skill premiuim increased $1.55 more for THEM and left the rest of the skilled falling behind. It wasn't an issue for them at all, and even your Local I believe was a yes vote on that. Funny how that double standard exist when they are on the short end of the deal.

My motivation for pushing AMFA was mostly two fold. One no longer affiliated with the AFL-CIO and two remove the pitiful TWU from AA property. I liked the idea of all AMT's being in one union and still do. I liked the idea of experience recognition and still do. I liked the idea of elected National Officers and still do. I have no idea if that would make workers lives better or not. Many have a different defintion of better life than me or you. You pushed AMFA too, you were even removed from Office. Now you still work daily under an oath of alligience to that and are now in the inner circle of the problem. Does that make your motives questionable?

What I dislike is a group of workers that first blamed the Bus Drivers in New York City, then they blamed the Fleet Service Clerks, then they started blaming Tulsa. Now most claim they work in the elements, and under extreme pressure on the line so screw Tulsa and their weekends off and low cost of living. Don't tell me you have not read that type of BS here and heard it within your local. Every photo I have ever seen from your Local Bob actually shows a pretty damn nice hangar to work in. Does that roof leak and the doors not close on that one? Those class II stations likely have it worse but they are about history now. At any rate,the more you line guys open your mouths blaming Tulsa and screaming for a spin-off, the more I fear placing the membership in charge of the union. I know you personally have defended Overhaul, I have read it, but you are not the majority either.

I apologize for being bitter Bob. Unlike you, I do not play both sides of the fence. I WAS bitter when organizing AMFA and I AM bitter NOW.

How do you take an oath of allegiance to that which you know has been harmful to workers? I remember how you made fun of my Power Ppoint presentation back then too, so our relationship ins't really much different today than it was then. Sad to see how now that they gave you a little feeling of authority, you now defend that which you tried to remove. Do you really believe that because they placed you in a position of decision making that the TWU is better now and we will all benefit greatly? Fact is since I was bitter then and I am bitter now, you are the one that appears to have a different outlook today not me. My feelings have not changed much Bob. Have yours?

I suspect you are in for a real treat before these negotiations are over. We'll talk again then for sure. Best case scenario is other airlines and other unions of the industry improve our pay. But that was built into the TA to keep us moving with them anyway. Are you going to get a number one pay guarantee insead of a number two?

What do you figure the value of you and me still owning a defined pension that is still being funded is worth these days? What's that worth in dollars Bob?

Once again Mr. Informer gives us the ole "I got mine speech" for voting yes on the T/A and a myriad of other issues. With people like you that organized the AMFA movement at Tule it is no wonder why it failed. AMP, AMFA, TWU, and your co-workers would be better served if you just welded your BBQ baloney mouth shut.

 

[TWU informer]

Once again Mr. Informer gives us the ole "I got mine speech" for voting yes on the T/A and a myriad of other issues. With people like you that organized the AMFA movement at Tule it is no wonder why it failed. AMP, AMFA, TWU, and your co-workers would be better served if you just welded your BBQ baloney mouth shut.

And so you deny that with the TWU Negotiating for us that if you don't get yours when you have it, you probably are not going to get it at all?

At least I tell the truth, unlike you and others that really vote based on what is in an agreement for you, all the while pretending you only really give a damn about others. :blink:

If not for you and your family who are you in this for anyway? Not me I can tell that!

And if your on the Line not Tulsa, so who then?

Are you one of those "Save the Profession" drum beaters too?
Fine tell me what you have done lately.

You don't even have it in you to tell the truth so I don't know why I even bother to ask.

 

[Hopeful]

And so you deny that with the TWU Negotiating for us that if you don't get yours when you have it, you probably are not going to get it at all?

At least I tell the truth, unlike you and others that really vote based on what is in an agreement for you, all the while pretending you only really give a damn about others. :blink:

If not for you and your family who are you in this for anyway? Not me I can tell that!

And if your on the Line not Tulsa, so who then?

Are you one of those "Save the Profession" drum beaters too?
Fine tell me what you have done lately.

You don't even have it in you to tell the truth so I don't know why I even bother to ask.

Informer....What about this scenario?
How about we grandfather every member in and make the changes for the people not employed yet? Have two contracts...the OLD and the NEW....Then they can offer an early out, say 5 and 5...clean house and hire the new classification of mechanics under new pay and benefits.
After all, they can decide what they're getting and NOT getting!
I know I will catch a lot of flack for my opinion. But I am being honest in believing that this profession is dead.
Eventually the airlines will succeed in petitioning the feds into eliminating most of the requirements for a licensed mechanic. And as long as the airlines are willing to accept the liability of bad maintenance and EAT the fines and lawsuits....then let em!

One thing people fail to remember is that the A&P license is all about liability! It says you have been found to be properly qualified.
Then when you cause an air disaster, the airlines tell the lawyers and feds,,,"THERE HE IS, GO GIT EM!"

Yea, eliminate the need for a licensed mechanic and whatever money they saved and whatever profits earned will be spent on lawyers, litigation, lawsuits, fines and monetary awards!

 

[Hopeful]

$580 per month raise, and I wasn't losing retirement medical. I votes Yes because it was satisfactory and my Wife was ill. Yes leave my part as is, including no further outsource of heavy overhaul, incease the signing bonus or get retro to pay for your delay and you can count on me to vote YES again Bob.

Most AMT had no problem with voting yes when the skill premiuim increased $1.55 more for THEM and left the rest of the skilled falling behind. It wasn't an issue for them at all, and even your Local I believe was a yes vote on that. Funny how that double standard exist when they are on the short end of the deal.

Informer, you have to consider the ratio of NO votes to YES votes. I don't think Bob Owens has that much influence over his flock as the Rev. Jim Jones did when they drank their Kool-Aid,

 

[TWU informer]

Informer....What about this scenario?
How about we grandfather every member in and make the changes for the people not employed yet? Have two contracts...the OLD and the NEW....Then they can offer an early out, say 5 and 5...clean house and hire the new classification of mechanics under new pay and benefits.
After all, they can decide what they're getting and NOT getting!
I know I will catch a lot of flack for my opinion. But I am being honest in believing that this profession is dead.
Eventually the airlines will succeed in petitioning the feds into eliminating most of the requirements for a licensed mechanic. And as long as the airlines are willing to accept the liability of bad maintenance and EAT the fines and lawsuits....then let em!

One thing people fail to remember is that the A&P license is all about liability! It says you have been found to be properly qualified.
Then when you cause an air disaster, the airlines tell the lawyers and feds,,,"THERE HE IS, GO GIT EM!"

Yea, eliminate the need for a licensed mechanic and whatever money they saved and whatever profits earned will be spent on lawyers, litigation, lawsuits, fines and monetary awards!

That is what happened in 1983 that we all complain about called the "B" Scale. And even though we complain about that contract. AA grew by tripling the fleet size and most of us were hired and we were told as you say the conditions of employment and apparently we each decided to accept.

You are correct in that honesty that goes against the proper mantra and chest pounding then prepare as flack does come your way.

I don't recall being informed that I would be held hostage by a corrupt, undemocratic and docile union though. I was only told I would HAVE to join not any details about how bad they suck.

 

[frontline]

The failed strategy here is negotiating a deal with the company, recommending it to members and then changing your mind. Do they know what they're doing?

Look at Delta's flight attendants and mechanics. Somehow they are doing fine without any union at all!

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------- If the membership had the trust of American's management, there wouldn't be a need for a Union.----- But that's not the case! What happened to "Shared sacrifice" promised in 2003? They got theirs, year after year, in the form of Bonus!-------- What happened to the promise of shared gain?------- Seems all one sided doesn't it? ------- Why do they play one base against the other?-------- One station, or work group against another? ------- No, trust has to be earned! And in my short time with AA ( eight years!) I couldn't see it!----- But than again, I can say the same about the TWU!

 

[swamt]

The failed strategy here is negotiating a deal with the company, recommending it to members and then changing your mind. Do they know what they're doing?

Look at Delta's flight attendants and mechanics. Somehow they are doing fine without any union at all!

WOW!! You guys need some serious help. We over here at SWA was really hoping you guys would also vote in AMFA after we did. The membership is so much more informed and calm with AMFA here. I have read thru all the postings in this forum concerning contract negotiations, and it is time for you guys to vote in a new union. AMFA works very well for us. But what ever you guys do, DO NOT vote in the teamsters. The teamsters and the TWU are pretty much the same in one. What other union allows it's members to sit in on negotiations? NONE! We will be sitting in on the negotiations for senority intregration between SWA and AirTran mechanics, while the teamsters won't allow their members to. Any and all negotiations we can sit in. Vote national officers in, or vote national officers out, at least you can with AMFA. That keeps everyone on their toes. Works great guys-but don't believe me just keep the TWU and see where they get you.
Also keep this in mind, your company (as well as ours) monitors all these web sites to gather more info for themselves. This is fact as we have caught SWA company negotiators quoting some stuff from internet online forums. I would like to wish all the AA mechanics good luck for your current negotiations. And I really hope you all don't think you will get the 17.5% plus 10% payback from the co. But I do wish you all get the pay back the co. promiced to return to you all for the original deal cut by the co. Sit back and watch the pilots get back what they were promiced, you all, as well as F/A's and all employees should get what they were promiced.
TWU informer, Keep up your hard work. We had a man here that also fought for years to get AMFA in here at SWA. He was persistant for many years and it finally paid off. Yes it took extreme measures from the teamsters to help the fact, but this is exacally where you guys are at over there at AA. Now that AMFA is in, all the teamster lovers now are EXTREMELY happy AMFA is here. IBT is saying there is a card drive at SWA and AirTran to represent both carriers once combined, there is no such card drive here at all. Teamsters are history at SWA and will never come back, and you all need to do the same at AA. Everyone will be much more happier...

 

[Hopeful]

WOW!! You guys need some serious help. We over here at SWA was really hoping you guys would also vote in AMFA after we did. The membership is so much more informed and calm with AMFA here. I have read thru all the postings in this forum concerning contract negotiations, and it is time for you guys to vote in a new union. AMFA works very well for us. But what ever you guys do, DO NOT vote in the teamsters. The teamsters and the TWU are pretty much the same in one. What other union allows it's members to sit in on negotiations? NONE! We will be sitting in on the negotiations for senority intregration between SWA and AirTran mechanics, while the teamsters won't allow their members to. Any and all negotiations we can sit in. Vote national officers in, or vote national officers out, at least you can with AMFA. That keeps everyone on their toes. Works great guys-but don't believe me just keep the TWU and see where they get you.
Also keep this in mind, your company (as well as ours) monitors all these web sites to gather more info for themselves. This is fact as we have caught SWA company negotiators quoting some stuff from internet online forums. I would like to wish all the AA mechanics good luck for your current negotiations. And I really hope you all don't think you will get the 17.5% plus 10% payback from the co. But I do wish you all get the pay back the co. promiced to return to you all for the original deal cut by the co. Sit back and watch the pilots get back what they were promiced, you all, as well as F/A's and all employees should get what they were promiced.
TWU informer, Keep up your hard work. We had a man here that also fought for years to get AMFA in here at SWA. He was persistant for many years and it finally paid off. Yes it took extreme measures from the teamsters to help the fact, but this is exacally where you guys are at over there at AA. Now that AMFA is in, all the teamster lovers now are EXTREMELY happy AMFA is here. IBT is saying there is a card drive at SWA and AirTran to represent both carriers once combined, there is no such card drive here at all. Teamsters are history at SWA and will never come back, and you all need to do the same at AA. Everyone will be much more happier...

swamt.....Thanks for the input, nice to hear from a SWA employee!
But thanks to the company-minded TWU, there was no "snap-back" clause. So the end result is we have to fight for everything we gave back as if it were first negoatiated. 40 years of bargaining gains were wiped out in a few weeks, and here we are 2 1/2 years later with no contract because the company wishes to restore NOT ONE SINGLE ITEM that was taken!

 

[swamt]

swamt.....Thanks for the input, nice to hear from a SWA employee!
But thanks to the company-minded TWU, there was no "snap-back" clause. So the end result is we have to fight for everything we gave back as if it were first negoatiated. 40 years of bargaining gains were wiped out in a few weeks, and here we are 2 1/2 years later with no contract because the company wishes to restore NOT ONE SINGLE ITEM that was taken!

There is alot of us that thought you guys did get the snap back clause in there. The TWU should have been booted out as soon as they brought to you guys this concession package with out a "snap-back" clause, it never should have came to the floor period. I will say the TWU here, representing our F/A's seem to do a good job. Could it be all your leaders of the TWU? I know of one for sure that needs to be removed-I saw him in action in Tulsa at one of your meetings.
If you guys have any questions about how AMFA works just ask. I am a member, not an officer, rep., LEC member, or an organizer just a mech. that loves the ways AMFA operates MUCH,MUCH better than the teamsters... BTW; Is there some sort of meeting today with the mediator and some sort of announcement comming?

 

[Hopeful]

There is alot of us that thought you guys did get the snap back clause in there. The TWU should have been booted out as soon as they brought to you guys this concession package with out a "snap-back" clause, it never should have came to the floor period. I will say the TWU here, representing our F/A's seem to do a good job. Could it be all your leaders of the TWU? I know of one for sure that needs to be removed-I saw him in action in Tulsa at one of your meetings.
If you guys have any questions about how AMFA works just ask. I am a member, not an officer, rep., LEC member, or an organizer just a mech. that loves the ways AMFA operates MUCH,MUCH better than the teamsters... BTW; Is there some sort of meeting today with the mediator and some sort of announcement comming?

Thanks swamt....There are those here who would not trade the TWU for any union..let alone AMFA.
The union is meeting with the mediator today to give a new proposal and presentation. I do not believe the company will be present. They want to drag this out as long as they can because there is no threat of RETRO pay.