TWU-IAM Finally Getting Ready for JCBA Negotiations

[WeAAsles]

Please spell it out....You and NYer have been ranting about how many more mechanics has than other airlines. You accuse me and others of advocating outsourcing  so me can increase our pay by doing so...So you mention that your group ALSO lost thousands of jobs....My question to you is quite simple....If having lost all those jobs, why are you not making way more than you do now? Isn't that the reason for your and NYers' attack on me? Claiming I, others and AMFA of wanting to outsource jobs and OH so we can reap the benefits? If you are going to claim that we want headcount reductions to fatten our wallets, then I ask you why has that NOT happened with the thousands of job losses we have experienced?
And please spare me the condescending remarks as if you have an MBA and need to talk down to me as if you know everything...

I guess you haven't caught up to my last two posts yet? That should spell it out pretty plainly.

Never said what you want or what you would vote for personally. I'm not inside your head.

 

[NYer]

No, no..you post the numbers because you only seem to have AMFA data..I don't need a fact sheet to know that the IAM lost the most jobs...they dominated nearly every airline with the exception of DL, PA and AA..

 
OK...and AMFA lost the most by percentage.

 

[WeAAsles]

Do you? It seems that you and NYer only post facts about AMFA, but when asked about the IAM and TWU, you skirt the issue. So basically what you are saying is that the job losses by the TWU and IAM were because of the INDUSTRY, yet NYer constantly reminds us of the losses under AMFA as if it was a failure on their part. 

The TWU and IAM have lost thousands of jobs as well. Give me one group that hasn't including AMFA? 

AMFA just overestimated their hand and their enemies resolve and intentions. They miscalculated and took the worst hit of any Labor organization in the industry in one shot period.

They weren't holding a good hand when it was called to show their cards.

 

[MetalMover]

The TWU and IAM have lost thousands of jobs as well. Give me one group that hasn't including AMFA? 

AMFA just overestimated their hand and their enemies resolve and intentions. They miscalculated and took the worst hit of any Labor organization in the industry in one shot period.

They weren't holding a good hand when it was called to show their cards.

Well thank you for the acknowledgment. NYer especially would have us believe that AMFA's loss was solely their fault alone. You fault them for going on strike...What good union member faults a strike? I only fault them for giving NWA the time to train replacements. That is where they are criticized. 
To the both of you I ask..if AMFA is so bad, why has SWA not booted them out? If the TWU is so good, why haven;t our flight attendants returned to the TWU?

 

[MetalMover]

 
OK...and AMFA lost the most by percentage.

Ok..what is your point? Were AMFA's job losses any different than those of the IAM and TWU? If you want to reference the strike..then you need to reference the Eastern Airline strike where way many union members lost their jobs than those at AMFA...

 

[700UW]

They also fail to post AMFA lost all the mechanics jobs at the following:
 
American Trans Air (ATA) Chapter 7
Independence Air (formally Atlantic Coast Airlines ACA) Chapter 7
Ozark (TW Bought them)
NW enough said
Trump Shutte (sold to citibank then US Air)
United (voted out)
 
No airline union was immune to the cuts.
 
IAM:
 
NW (voted out)
UA (voted out)
TW (bought by AA)
Comair (shutdown by DL)
WN I think but that was way before my time.
 
Not sure if I covered all the losses at both unions.  Anyone please feel free to add to the lists.

 

[MetalMover]

They also fail to post AMFA lost all the mechanics jobs at the following:
 
American Trans Air (ATA) Chapter 7
Independence Air (formally Atlantic Coast Airlines ACA) Chapter 7
Ozark (TW Bought them)
NW enough said
Trump Shutte (sold to citibank then US Air)
United (voted out)
 
No airline union was immune to the cuts.
 
IAM:
 
NW (voted out)
UA (voted out)
TW (bought by AA)
Comair (shutdown by DL)
WN I think but that was way before my time.

Eastern Airlines Strike causes how many job losses? I guess the IAM strike at Eastern was just and noble but the AMFA strike at NWA was not?

 

[WeAAsles]

So we're now all in agreement that not a single Union in the major airlines has done steller especially since 9/11. Maybe one or two Unions out there learned something from what happened at Eastern and maybe one other didn't heed those warnings?

 

[700UW]

Eastern Airlines Strike causes how many job losses? I guess the IAM strike at Eastern was just and noble but the AMFA strike at NWA was not?

I never said AMFA wasnt noble, I agree with that they could have never voted in that CBA that cut 50% of the workforce, IMO they didnt handle it right and could have done a better job.
 
Someone had to know what NW was up too, you just cant hire and train all those mechanics and no one get wind of it.
 
I dont agree with them going on strike with no strike fund, and they should have let the members vote on it and let them reject it, only to what let them vote on it months or a years or so later.  Instead of alienate all the other unions on the property.
 
And thanks, about EA, I forgot about that.
 
And Continental too I think when Lorenzo gutted that airline and there was no Section 1113 C.

 

[MetalMover]

I never said AMFA wasnt noble, I agree with that they could have never voted in that CBA that cut 50% of the workforce, IMO they didnt handle it right and could have done a better job.
 
Someone had to know what NW was up too, you just cant hire and train all those mechanics and no one get wind of it.
 
I dont agree with them going on strike with no strike fund, and they should have let the members vote on it and let them reject it, only to what let them vote on it months or a years or so later.  Instead of alienate all the other unions on the property.
 
And thanks, about EA, I forgot about that.
 
And Continental too I think when Lorenzo gutted that airline and there was no Section 1113 C.

I agree AMFA screwed up by allowing NWA to train replacements. 
So for those who assail AMFA for an Ill-advised strike, then history has proved that the Eastern Airlines was the most devastating strike for union members. Wasn't just mechanics who lost their livelihoods, it was all union members.
 
Continental was a little different. Lorenzo set out to destroy the unions there. And the rest of the industry unions did nothing.

 

[MetalMover]

So we're now all in agreement that not a single Union in the major airlines has done steller especially since 9/11. Maybe one or two Unions out there learned something from what happened at Eastern and maybe one other didn't heed those warnings?

I never said otherwise. But you and especially NYer cannot just throw the name AMFA in these forums without referring to the IAM and TWU. He is anti AMFA, and that is fine. But criticizing AMFA as a failure of a union while giving the TWU and IAM a pass is laughable. If the industry has evolved into what we know now it to be, then AMFA should be treated in the same regard.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

 
OK...and AMFA lost the most by percentage.

 
Sorry, Wrong again.
 
The IAM lost mechanic jobs at -
 
EAL - CAL - TWA - NWA - UAL - Alaska - Comair - WN 
 
Total AMT members and higher percentage of peak

 

[Buck]

 
No, at least not for collective bargaining purposes.

Well I did not ask about collective bargaining, but to be more clear, though the already written and approved by the membership or their representatives, the TWU Constitution and any letters or Bylaws, is it possible that we as members have already approved this association?

 

[WeAAsles]

Well thank you for the acknowledgment. NYer especially would have us believe that AMFA's loss was solely their fault alone. You fault them for going on strike...What good union member faults a strike? I only fault them for giving NWA the time to train replacements. That is where they are criticized. 
To the both of you I ask..if AMFA is so bad, why has SWA not booted them out? If the TWU is so good, why haven;t our flight attendants returned to the TWU? bad then why haven't the Mechanics booted them out?

You can say what you want but it hasn't happened and some of you have been trying for many many years now.

 

[WeAAsles]

I never said otherwise. But you and especially NYer cannot just throw the name AMFA in these forums without referring to the IAM and TWU. He is anti AMFA, and that is fine. But criticizing AMFA as a failure of a union while giving the TWU and IAM a pass is laughable. If the industry has evolved into what we know now it to be, then AMFA should be treated in the same regard.

You're correct. AMFA deserves the same scrutiny as all the other Unions who have failed to win against all the same forces for the last 37 years.

The AMFA ideology is admirable. But it honestly from looking at it's history hasn't lived up to it's ideals. NWA management destroyed them because they had no power or finances in any way shape or form to fight back against what was being done to them. We can go back and forth on the who what's and why's but the ultimate reality doesn't change the stories end.

If every Mechanic in the Industry had been in AMFA when the strike occurred things probably would have ended up at least a little different? But.