TWU-IAM Finally Getting Ready for JCBA Negotiations

[bigjets]

MetalMover,
I hear the same thing on NB Airbuses. The LAA 321s are on shorter leases and I understand it is because the 321NEO won't come on line until 2017. Once the older LAA and LUS 321s reach the end of their leases in 10 years expect to see them swapped out for 321NEOs. AA needed to replace the 757s but we all know the current 321 doesn't have the range however Airbus is shopping the 321LR to AA I read in AWST.
 
Combine LAA switching over to the LUS Phase Check program then we should expect that what TUL is used to seeing will fall off in the way of AMT HC. The TUL AMTs may find themselves doing the LCs they used to do in TUL in JFK, MIA, LAX, DFW, ORD, PHX, PHL, CLT, or SFO. When the 514 members vote or place items on the list for the negotiating committee they should really think about that maybe over a thousand of them may be working alongside the line AMTs in high COLA cities.
 
One item no one has mentioned is who is doing the V2500 work? With JT8D, RB211, and CF6 work falling off due to retirements of MD80, 757, and 767-300s PALM should and TAESL will shrink as well. The new gen GENx,, GE90, and V2500 the shop visits will drop dramatically compared to the volumes on those older engines. Another reason why TUL and TAESL will shrink.
 
The negotiating committee hopefully has their eye on the MX program future and how it will impact the membership. Eyes must be on the future to prevent us from getting screwed.
 
Come on TWU!!!

Hopefully a questionnaire won't be put out with bullet points like.

What's a priority
Job security or shift differential.

Holidays off at the bases or a cs policy

 

[Vortilon]

I have no problem with what your work-group chooses to do but I just honestly can't stand people who are disingenuous. You guys want to keep ignoring and twisting the facts to suite your particular false narrative hoping that others take up the torch and run with you. So I personally think you're looking to try and take advantage of any naive readers you might be able to sway. That just doesn't sit right with me bro.

As far as posting those ratio's, sorry if it bothers you by posting MIT data that gives the clear reality better than the pulpit you stand on. Kind of sucks I guess that it's out there huh?

They don't have the ground handling numbers BTW. I've been very seriously trying to find data on that so I can see the picture clearer for my own group. Unlike some people in your group I'm not afraid of seeing or having the truth posted. I actually think it would be a good thing.

 
Still citing the MIT survey huh.  The same one that doesn't bother to break down the actual numbers of licensed A&P mechanics working on aircraft.  Instead making a generalization, and lumping every non licensed person even remotely linked to aircraft maintenance as being one and the same as an AMT?  To the uninformed that survey might seem fair; fortunately, we know the real truth in what the actual numbers are.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
Still citing the MIT survey huh.  The same one that doesn't bother to break down the actual numbers of licensed A&P mechanics working on aircraft.  Instead making a generalization, and lumping every non licensed "person" even remotely linked to aircraft maintenance as being one and the same as an AMT?  To the uninformed that survey might seem fair; fortunately, we know the real truth in what the actual numbers are.

Alright, so what if maybe the data "lumps" in every "Non Licensed" "Member" into what I guess you consider to be "your" class and craft? If the NMB recognizes them to be a part of the bargaining unit, shouldn't they count as well? Or would you rather segregate them as part of the overall "in house" maintenance costs that the airline needs to provide?

I'm sure that the company would love nothing better than to outsource all those unlicensed jobs your group represents to the lowest bidder they can find (Bet you wouldn't mind that either) Then of course you licensed guys could go after some of those cost savings the company is getting.

And you wonder why some "persons" don't want to sign those cards you guys have tried to hand to them.

 

 

[NYer]

 

 
What is the alternative? What work group hasn't dealt with job losses? What unions has not been forced to accept job losses and other concessions? None of them, that's who. If there was a change to be made it would involve going to a better place and that place has not been presented. We won't know until we try...But you would never take that chance.
 
Some other groups have not looked to make a change, but you can be sure they have looked to see how others fared and the results of that speak volumes. There is no place we'd be better, because all the other places have positives and their negatives and when you balance all that out, making a change only creates more uncertainty and doesn't really takes us to greener pastures. Some of us are willing to take that chance.
 
So, in reading your responses is it accurate to say that outsourcing would be a better pill for you to swallow as long as you got more pay out of it? That seems to be what you're saying. Is that an incorrect characterization?  Yes it is an incorrect characterization. My point about outsourcing is that the outsourcing has increased, jobs have been lost and yet we have NO increase in compensation to show for it. So when someone brings up the fact that  AA has the highest ratio of mechanics per aircraft, my answer to them is outsourcing has not benefitted AA mechanics in any way, shape, or form. I never advocated increasing outsourcing to up my pay.
 
I've never criticized anyone for change. I simply don't see a better alternative to change or avoid all the complaints you have. I don't see another representative body that will deliver something different. Those members in TUL vote and make decisions based on what they see. If they see their jobs will be eliminated and they make choices based on that then that's their choice. To condemn anyone for making a choice while at the same time not living under the consequences of that choice is short-sighted. So it is ok for TUL to vote based on their wants and needs, but when the line people strive for change and their desire to rid themselves of the TWU it is somehow different?
 
Maybe you're correct and soon the TUL vote will be less than the Line vote, at that time a decision can be made by the Line guys which could get them a raise while it cuts more jobs from TUL. If that's the end game, then it will be very apparent to everyone what the true motivation for all the anti-TWU screaming....."See you later, but give me mine." Why not? that's what TUL has been doing to line people for decades. Why don't you have a problem with that? Also, do you realize that the need for OH will be diminished through attrition? The new aircraft coming on line, namely airbuses most likely will NEVER see the heaviest of maintenance checks. By the time they are due,  those aircraft will be turned in for shiny new models.

 

 
I would certainly take a chance. Just show me an organization that has not suffered the same issues we face. Show me a proven game plan that has garnered more favorable conditions. To merely state, "these guys suck let's go somewhere else," doesn't really give me the confidence to make that type of drastic move. Those of you willing to take that change can go get cards signed and if you get enough then you can make your move. The fact that you haven't been able to do so simply shows the majority is unwilling to take that chance.
 
There certainly has been some outsourcing, but nowhere to the degree that other workforces have suffered in the last decade, including the noble gesture with NWA. The assertion of pay rates not going up is false. Since the 2012, the maintenance group has seen an increase of more than 10%, plus this September you get another 3% and the Wage Adjuster to being you up even more.
 
No, it is not wrong for the TUL membership to vote the way they feel is best. At the same time, it is not wrong for the Line guys to vote the way they feel is best. It is also no wrong for those that want seek a change to follow through with that attempt. So far those attempts have been unsuccessful. What is wrong, in my opinion, is how the TUL guys are attacked for what they believe and for their choices. It is also wrong for those that want change to distort the facts and blame everyone around them in order to get what they want. A group that is clearly in minority.

 

[MetalMover]

 
I would certainly take a chance. Just show me an organization that has not suffered the same issues we face. Show me a proven game plan that has garnered more favorable conditions. To merely state, "these guys suck let's go somewhere else," doesn't really give me the confidence to make that type of drastic move. Those of you willing to take that change can go get cards signed and if you get enough then you can make your move. The fact that you haven't been able to do so simply shows the majority is unwilling to take that chance. They are not willing to take a chance because they are drinking the TWU kool aid. Take a chance, then new union fails the members, then they get booted out. Once the membership realize they have to that power, then and only then will the unions that represent them stop screwing the members.
There certainly has been some outsourcing, but nowhere to the degree that other workforces have suffered in the last decade, including the noble gesture with NWA. The assertion of pay rates not going up is false. Since the 2012, the maintenance group has seen an increase of more than 10%, plus this September you get another 3% and the Wage Adjuster to being you up even more. How do you know those increases were directly tied to outsourcing and job loss? They were just simple paltry contractual raises to help pass a vote.
 
No, it is not wrong for the TUL membership to vote the way they feel is best. At the same time, it is not wrong for the Line guys to vote the way they feel is best. It is also no wrong for those that want seek a change to follow through with that attempt. So far those attempts have been unsuccessful. What is wrong, in my opinion, is how the TUL guys are attacked for what they believe and for their choices. It is also wrong for those that want change to distort the facts and blame everyone around them in order to get what they want. A group that is clearly in minority. It was more than just their choices.....many a contract was passed by TUL that benefitted them over the line because they got a better deal, plain and simple. Using the threat of "roll call" by TUL did not sit well with the line people.. Where is all this UNIONISM you like to preach? Stick together? As far as TUL is concerned, the chickens are coming home to roost. Again, what facts are being distorted? TUL has voted in contract after contract in the earlier years it favored them and later on because the TWU instilled the fear in them that jobs would be lost. Guess what, NYer.?????? The jobs were lost anyway. To OSM's and to outsourcing...
So tell me, how did voting in pathetic concessionally contracts help TUL? Do you realize what is currently on with TUL and headcount reductions/movements? It is just the beginning.

 

[NYer]

 

 
I would certainly take a chance. Just show me an organization that has not suffered the same issues we face. Show me a proven game plan that has garnered more favorable conditions. To merely state, "these guys suck let's go somewhere else," doesn't really give me the confidence to make that type of drastic move. Those of you willing to take that change can go get cards signed and if you get enough then you can make your move. The fact that you haven't been able to do so simply shows the majority is unwilling to take that chance. They are not willing to take a chance because they are drinking the TWU kool aid. Take a chance, then new union fails the members, then they get booted out. Once the membership realize they have to that power, then and only then will the unions that represent them stop screwing the members.
There certainly has been some outsourcing, but nowhere to the degree that other workforces have suffered in the last decade, including the noble gesture with NWA. The assertion of pay rates not going up is false. Since the 2012, the maintenance group has seen an increase of more than 10%, plus this September you get another 3% and the Wage Adjuster to being you up even more. How do you know those increases were directly tied to outsourcing and job loss? They were just simple paltry contractual raises to help pass a vote.
 
No, it is not wrong for the TUL membership to vote the way they feel is best. At the same time, it is not wrong for the Line guys to vote the way they feel is best. It is also no wrong for those that want seek a change to follow through with that attempt. So far those attempts have been unsuccessful. What is wrong, in my opinion, is how the TUL guys are attacked for what they believe and for their choices. It is also wrong for those that want change to distort the facts and blame everyone around them in order to get what they want. A group that is clearly in minority. It was more than just their choices.....many a contract was passed by TUL that benefitted them over the line because they got a better deal, plain and simple. Using the threat of "roll call" by TUL did not sit well with the line people.. Where is all this UNIONISM you like to preach? Stick together? As far as TUL is concerned, the chickens are coming home to roost. Again, what facts are being distorted? TUL has voted in contract after contract in the earlier years it favored them and later on because the TWU instilled the fear in them that jobs would be lost. Guess what, NYer.?????? The jobs were lost anyway. To OSM's and to outsourcing...
So tell me, how did voting in pathetic concessionally contracts help TUL? Do you realize what is currently on with TUL and headcount reductions/movements? It is just the beginning.

 

 
I guess it's a lot easier for you and I to take a chance since we are not in a Base and we are not the first in line for the ax in the event the "chance" doesn't work out as thought. Since they believe they are in direct line with the firing squad then they vote in the manner they believe they should. It's funny how those which won't be directly impacted by cuts are the most willing to take a "chance."
 
First you make the statement that we didn't get any raises, while they get cuts. Well, we received over 10% in wage hikes, with another 3% contractual raise in September and the ability to go up to industry average in the same month of September. Those raises were in the same CBA with the cuts, couldn't get one without the other.
 
How did it help TUL? They've kept their jobs for the last decade while other airlines have shipped those jobs away.
 
If you believe TUL is the issue, then soon the Line guys might get more members than the bases and the advantage turns to the Line. At that point you can ship those jobs away and get your raises.

 

[swamt]

So would you be happy if AA outsource more heavy maintenance so the rest of us could get more in our paycheck? Do you realize that we once had nearly 12500 mechanics. We are now down to 7600 including cleaners and OSMs..
That's about 40%---FORTY PERCENT.....I didn't see my salary go up to compensate for all those jobs...So the TWU has agreed to givebacks since 1983 to prevent job loss...How do you explain the 40% loss?
And AGAIN I will remind you that the job losses started BEFORE bankruptcy.....BEFORE....
 
Once again the mechanics do not progress for a couple of reasons....Up until now, the TWU has been able to pass any POS contract with the help of the TUL vote.....Those days are nearing an end. Then add in those at the line stations who drink the TWU kool aid that they're contracts are job savers...... Do you not see the pattern here?
Contract after contract they have force fed us BS to save jobs only to have outsourcing increased and jobs losses anyway.. 

MM, I beg to differ about your numbers.  I forget the year, but at one time the TWU at AA has over 18,000 members in the mechanic and related group. Which is closer to 60% of the membership using your current 7600 members not 40% (more like 58% to be exact).  The concessions and give backs since 1983 are correct. So for over the last 30 plus years the TWU has been agreeing to cut jobs for something else.  Some of these actions were not even voted on by the membership, they were just enforced by the international union.

 

[swamt]

So regardless of what happened and how people remember it happened for the last two decades plus, what are WE going to do to ensure the next deal is the best it can be? How do we make sure our voices are heard and that the committee understands what it is WE want from them? If there is prep going on, what is that prep? Is it how to get the top "must haves" in our next CBA? Money is a big thing but obviously not everything. I am sure our union brothers and sisters at UA/CO and SW are watching us and what we do. Let's not screw this up.
 
Understanding and remembering the past is important going forward but we can't be so mired in it we lose focus on the here and now.

One way would be to fire the TWU.  Get a union where the members run the union and not the international.  AMFA will not and can not promise the absolute best contract of all within their industry for the first contract out of all these concessions you all have been thru, but, at least with AMFA the membership would have a voice and be heard...

 

[NYer]

MM, I beg to differ about your numbers.  I forget the year, but at one time the TWU at AA has over 18,000 members in the mechanic and related group. Which is closer to 60% of the membership using your current 7600 members not 40% (more like 58% to be exact).  The concessions and give backs since 1983 are correct. So for over the last 30 plus years the TWU has been agreeing to cut jobs for something else.  Some of these actions were not even voted on by the membership, they were just enforced by the international union.

 
And all these cuts are exclusive to TWU represented Members? No other mechanic group at any other airline has been affected by cuts in the industry?
 
Because if you can find a union membership that has not dealt with this, please let us know so we can run towards them ASAP.

 

[NYer]

One way would be to fire the TWU.  Get a union where the members run the union and not the international.  AMFA will not and can not promise the absolute best contract of all within their industry for the first contract out of all these concessions you all have been thru, but, at least with AMFA the membership would have a voice and be heard...

 
So let's go to AMFA because we fire everyone, not because they've done better for mechanics in the industry?
 
And if you want to bring them into the conversation, they had over 20,000 Members at their peak...today, it's less than 3,000.

 

[swamt]

NYer, you can keep the TWU/IAM all you want to.  The TWU's record for the last 30 plus years simply speaks for itself.  If you guys do in fact keep this association you will get what you deserve...

 

[NYer]

NYer, you can keep the TWU/IAM all you want to.  The TWU's record for the last 30 plus years simply speaks for itself.  If you guys do in fact keep this association you will get what you deserve...

 
And you can't offer a better record with any other choice of representative.
 
The argument, "they suck, so we must go," hasn't worked for more than a decade. You know why? You can't offer a better alternative.

 

[WeAAsles]

swamt. I'm curious about something? I'm asking this as an honest question to you? I think you are with SWA and represented by AMFA? AMFA became the bargaining rep for SWA in 2002. Did AMFA secure any contracts for their mechanics between 2002 and 2008?

I saw this online.

Southwest Airlines and the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA) are proud to announce that the parties have reached a tentative agreement with a four-year term. The Company is pleased with this "cost neutral" contract which delivers raises in exchange for work rule improvements and contract flexibility. The current collective bargaining agreement became amendable on August 16, 2008.

http://www.swamedia.com/releases/Southwest-Airlines-and-AMFA-Mechanics-Reach-Tentative-Agreement

So "Cost Neutral" means that at least for that contract AMFA did not gain anything in added labor expenses against SWA.

That contract became amendable late 2012. This was the last update I read from your negotiators. 
 
Following this utterly unproductive negotiation session, we advised the Company that we were going to utilize the remainder of the day and the following day to work as a Committee.
The next session is scheduled for February 19, 2015, and we will work on Maintenance Control specific items. We would like to thank those who took their time to observe these negotiations. If you have any questions, do not hesitate to contact your representative. We also appreciate your support.
Sincerely,
Your Negotiating Committe

http://www.amfa32.com/index.cfm?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&homeID=466724

What I'm asking and you can twist it or attack me or any other Union if you like but can you cite any examples where AMFA has come into an airline and achieved gains for their members driving the airlines costs up and are still the bargaining representative at that airline? Has AMFA been successful with the 600 members they represent at Alaska Airlines? Have they secured both higher pay and benefits and more jobs over the course of their history there?

Would you mind posting a few examples of their victories for people who may be interested in them who are readers?
 

 

[Overspeed]

swamt,
So far AMFA has only produced good results when not faced with any kind of adversity. The past contracts that AMFA negotiated at WN were mostly extensions of an existing contract. How many years has AMFA been negotiating under tough conditions at WN and produced nothing? The two previous negotiations under difficult conditions resulted in loss of most AMT jobs at NWA and at UAL the "meh" CBA negotiated resulted in the IBT successfully taking the membership away from AMFA.
 
Fire the TWU to get the awful track record of AMFA at UAL/NWA and no progress at WN...I'd have to say no. The APA and APFA have taken away good deals thus far and if we can just get to the table and past all of GP's jockeying for power I see a good raise for all if us here without firing the TWU and the big risk of going with AMFA.

 

[700UW]

WeAA,

Under AMFA's watch at AS, AS closed their OAK Heavy Maintenance Base, cutting 250 jobs and outsourcing the work.