TWU-IAM Finally Getting Ready for JCBA Negotiations

[AANOTOK]

We also lost mail...many many stations outsourced...and certain jobs in hubs to Eagle/Envoy. As far as being at the top (or near the top) in compensation, if I were being totally honest Metal, I have no idea where we rank among our peers. I know what I make, I know what I lost both in compensation and benefits, and I know where those lost jobs have gone. I have stated a trillion times you guys have been shafted. I have also stated that we have been too and you guys (some of you) only like to state that you guys have been screwed while making a point how well fleet has done. Again, maybe we have not suffered as much as your work group Metal, but something you fail to mention when you do use our work group as your comparison, you fail to disclose how much suffering fleet has endured. In other words, if your gonna give a story, give both sides. Finally, Metal, no disrespect to you or the majority of your work group. I hope whatever you guys want you get. I also hope we get back all the stuff we lost as well, and it's much more than compensation (hourly wage).

 

[NYer]

I never said you guys didn't suffer any losses.. But yet there are those like NYer who are still happy with the TWU...
But lets be honest here, mechanics have lost more  work to fleet service AND outsourcing than any other work group. I understand full and well how the loss of cabin service affected your group. But yet NYer wants to stay with TWU.
The TWU gladly gave deicing, receive and dispatch to fleet service over thirty years ago. I don't recall fleet service saying..."HEY WE SHOULD BE GOOD UNION PEOPLE AND NOT DO THIS." But no,  the TWU sold everyone a bill of good in 1983 and gladly took that work from maintenance. "hey better than outsourcing."
These TWU concessions occurred BEFORE any bankruptcy. SO spare me the WE HAD A GUN TO OUR HEADS" defense.
 
And as far as fleet service gaining at the expense of the mechanics...Let me give you a history lesson. And this is true of every legacy carrier....In the good old days, when there were no separate locals, mechanics were always the minority. With the exception of the maintenance base, mechanics could never get elected to any local president or vice president slot. Our voices were not heard, just ignored. So come negotiation time, we had either cabin service or line cargo people bargaining on our behalf....And you know how that turned out? When it came time to money....the response of these negotiators was "well we have to keep the MAJORITY happy. So mechanics lagged in the compensation department.
Prove me wrong.....I work with many mechanics from TWA, Eastern and PANAM...and that's the way it was there as well.
 
So true your work group suffered as well....But let's talk compensation now.....is your work group at or near top of industry? Mechanics are not..We are still at the bottom...lower than JetBlue now.....The TWU is responsible because they have managed to appease the large voting block of TUL and some at the line stations to give in to the threats of "THIS IS THE BEST YOU'RE GOING TO GET" and YOU MECHANICS NEED TO LOWER YOUR EXPECTATIONS."
 
Again prove me wrong.

 
That's another problem. You seem to believe that some of us are absolute TWU cheerleaders. Far from it, but if there is going to be a change in the guard then you need to show me that the replacement will be better than the current. You won't do that with the generic, "anything is better," because the facts of the matter don't bear that out. It's easy to call for change and bring down the TWU, but without a viable replacement that talk can only do more than good. Some of you are focused on change that you take little time to analyze what that really means.
 
You bring up that I want to stay with the TWU despite losing Cabin? I want to stay with the TWU because there is no alternative that would have kept Cabin. As a matter of fact, Cabin jobs started to be lose in the industry in the late 90's when Delta got rid of that department from one day to the next. Since then, it has been a slow death with the TWU not letting go of that department until it was taken away in the BK. We kept that department longer than any other legacy airline. So why would I make a change when change isn't any better?
 
Prove you wrong on the negotiations? No. I don't have to. However, since the Maintenance Presidents have had a full voice in their negotiations the blame has gone from the Fleet Presidents to the International. Then blame is also placed on certain maintenance Presidents like Luis, Zimmerman, Gilboy...or the ATD, like Videtich, Gless....or the Int'l, like Little, Gordon...then it was the financial experts like Donnelly and Tom Roth....or the lawyers, like Sharon Levine, Rosen....or the BK Court and Judge Lane....the point is that the mechanics have always pointed a finger at others while they complain about their situation.....You can continue to look to fix what happened in '83, in the 90's, in 2003, in 2008 and in the BK, but as long as look backwards you won't see what's in front of you. The issues we face are being faced by every other airline and every other union. You guys want to make a change just because it has to be better, while other of us want to see who has been better off before we make a change....and today, no one is better off.
 
As far as you pay. Be truthful. In order to get compensation like at other airlines, you'll need to shed the same assets those other workforces had to shed in place of the compensation. How do other airlines pay for those raises? They pay them to less people. It's quite simple. If you want more pay, it will cost you some jobs. It's simple arithmetic.
 
You can have the lofty expectations you want, but you also have to conscience of the situation. Didn't the mechanic leadership tell their members in 2011 to not accept the TA because it was substandard and the threats of BK were BS because they had $4B in the bank? Yes. they did. They were wrong and they filed. Again in BK, it was told that we should vote no on the TA and let them abrogate because they will come back with a better deal. They were wrong again. The APA turn their deal down only to come back with the same 17% cuts as everyone else. At that time, those that were wrong pointed fingers again. Bottom line, they were wrong.

 

[WeAAsles]

Average In House Maintenance Employees per Aircraft

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2013%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Productivity/MX/Average%20In%20House%20Maintenance%20Employees%20per%20Aircraft.htm

18.2 employees per aircraft for AA in 2013. The nearest competitor would be now Delta who had 11.2 employees per aircraft in 2013.

Some individuals like to focus on what the wages are for a SWA Mechanic. But they only had 3.4 employees per aircraft in 2013.

The data for 2014 hasn't been updated yet.

 

[Tater Salad]

That's because AA mgmt. doesn't know how to manage the workforce, every day 15% of the workforce sitting around doing nothing.

 

[WeAAsles]

That's because AA mgmt. doesn't know how to manage the workforce, every day 15% of the workforce sitting around doing nothing.

I've "heard" that was what management in DFW was looking to change and maybe why it seems the two sides have gone to war. I heard something about being able to CS with yourself was being eliminated which as it was explained to me meant someone can kind of make up his own hours?

 

[WeAAsles]

Back to the Airline Data Project once more. Using SWA again as the comparator. In 2013 AA outsourced about 30% of it's maintenance expenses where SWA outsourced Double that at 60% (Leaving out the .3 and .7 and rounding off) And they also had far less mechanics per aircraft than AA had in that year.

Going all the way back to 1995 on this chart, the comparisons have never even been close.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2013%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Productivity/MX/Percent%20of%20Maintenance%20Expenses%20Outsourced.htm

The 2014 data when it comes out should be very interesting.
 
The Global Airline Industry Program represents a large-scale effort that provides the means for MIT and the academic community to make a "great leap forward" in studying the airline industry and in educating its future leaders. This effort was established under the umbrella of the Sloan Foundation's Industry Studies Program and is supported by the MIT Airline Industry Consortium.
The Program includes work addressing aspects of the economics, management and operations of air carriers. The scope also includes interactions with airline companies, aircraft and engine manufacturers, airports, air traffic control and regulatory or supervisory agencies such as the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).

http://web.mit.edu/airlines/about_us/about_us_overview.html

 

[swamt]

I smell a decision coming soon as NYers post have increased 10 fold...

 

[MetalMover]

 
I'll agree with you, if you would also agree that AA has more mechanics per aircraft than any other airline and we have more heavy maintenance than any other airline. Deal?
 
BTW...other title groups did have lower paying positions in their CBA, like building cleaners and junior fleet service clerks, but those were negotiated out of the CBA's in later agreements. You can come together and move forward of you can wallow in what has been without trying to move towards what can be.
 
The airline has given the APA and the APFA wages which surpass Delta by 7%. If the maintenance group is the last in the industry, then 7% above Delta is upward movement, and we haven't even sat down to negotiate.
 
So with news, what comes out of some of the Local leaders? That's not enough. We need to demand 40%...FORTY PERCENT.
 
THAT, is why mechanics don't progress...

So would you be happy if AA outsource more heavy maintenance so the rest of us could get more in our paycheck? Do you realize that we once had nearly 12500 mechanics. We are now down to 7600 including cleaners and OSMs..
That's about 40%---FORTY PERCENT.....I didn't see my salary go up to compensate for all those jobs...So the TWU has agreed to givebacks since 1983 to prevent job loss...How do you explain the 40% loss?
And AGAIN I will remind you that the job losses started BEFORE bankruptcy.....BEFORE....
 
Once again the mechanics do not progress for a couple of reasons....Up until now, the TWU has been able to pass any POS contract with the help of the TUL vote.....Those days are nearing an end. Then add in those at the line stations who drink the TWU kool aid that they're contracts are job savers...... Do you not see the pattern here?
Contract after contract they have force fed us BS to save jobs only to have outsourcing increased and jobs losses anyway.. 

 

[MetalMover]

 
That's another problem. You seem to believe that some of us are absolute TWU cheerleaders. Far from it, but if there is going to be a change in the guard then you need to show me that the replacement will be better than the current. You won't do that with the generic, "anything is better," because the facts of the matter don't bear that out. It's easy to call for change and bring down the TWU, but without a viable replacement that talk can only do more than good. Some of you are focused on change that you take little time to analyze what that really means.   Why would I choose to stay with a union that continually screws my workgroup? You know what our alternative is...Since we can't get there yet, YOU will never know what we may achieve with them. Then again, since your in a different title group, I don't need to show you anything that applies to my title group. 
 
You bring up that I want to stay with the TWU despite losing Cabin? I want to stay with the TWU because there is no alternative that would have kept Cabin. As a matter of fact, Cabin jobs started to be lose in the industry in the late 90's when Delta got rid of that department from one day to the next. Since then, it has been a slow death with the TWU not letting go of that department until it was taken away in the BK. We kept that department longer than any other legacy airline. So why would I make a change when change isn't any better?  How do you know? Has your group ever tried looking into different representation?
 
Prove you wrong on the negotiations? No. I don't have to. However, since the Maintenance Presidents have had a full voice in their negotiations the blame has gone from the Fleet Presidents to the International. Then blame is also placed on certain maintenance Presidents like Luis, Zimmerman, Gilboy...or the ATD, like Videtich, Gless....or the Int'l, like Little, Gordon...then it was the financial experts like Donnelly and Tom Roth....or the lawyers, like Sharon Levine, Rosen....or the BK Court and Judge Lane....the point is that the mechanics have always pointed a finger at others while they complain about their situation.....You can continue to look to fix what happened in '83, in the 90's, in 2003, in 2008 and in the BK, but as long as look backwards you won't see what's in front of you. The issues we face are being faced by every other airline and every other union. You guys want to make a change just because it has to be better, while other of us want to see who has been better off before we make a change....and today, no one is better off.
So we should just forget the TWU has given away maintenance work to your work group and to outsourcing. Just forget that it was done but yet NO gains were made in lieu of those concessions?
 
As far as you pay. Be truthful. In order to get compensation like at other airlines, you'll need to shed the same assets those other workforces had to shed in place of the compensation. How do other airlines pay for those raises? They pay them to less people. It's quite simple. If you want more pay, it will cost you some jobs. It's simple arithmetic. I just responded to you in another post that we have lost about 40% of mechanics since the high of about 12500. We are down to 7600 including OSMs and cleaners thanks to outsoucing and shifting of some work to fleet service.  I never made a dime more because of lost work! You fail to see the trend of the TWU agreeing to outsourcing more and more work yet we get NOTHING in return. That is what you fail to see.
 
You can have the lofty expectations you want, but you also have to conscience of the situation. Didn't the mechanic leadership tell their members in 2011 to not accept the TA because it was substandard and the threats of BK were BS because they had $4B in the bank? Yes. they did. They were wrong and they filed. Again in BK, it was told that we should vote no on the TA and let them abrogate because they will come back with a better deal. They were wrong again. The APA turn their deal down only to come back with the same 17% cuts as everyone else. At that time, those that were wrong pointed fingers again. Bottom line, they were wrong. Thanks to TUL mainly and some line stations who succumbed to threats is why the contract was voted in. Majority rules but it was a very close vote. Once again TUL is able to deliver for the TWU.
 
So having said all of this, you still criticize mechanics' desire for change. 

 

[MetalMover]

We also lost mail...many many stations outsourced...and certain jobs in hubs to Eagle/Envoy. As far as being at the top (or near the top) in compensation, if I were being totally honest Metal, I have no idea where we rank among our peers. I know what I make, I know what I lost both in compensation and benefits, and I know where those lost jobs have gone. I have stated a trillion times you guys have been shafted. I have also stated that we have been too and you guys (some of you) only like to state that you guys have been screwed while making a point how well fleet has done. Again, maybe we have not suffered as much as your work group Metal, but something you fail to mention when you do use our work group as your comparison, you fail to disclose how much suffering fleet has endured. In other words, if your gonna give a story, give both sides. Finally, Metal, no disrespect to you or the majority of your work group. I hope whatever you guys want you get. I also hope we get back all the stuff we lost as well, and it's much more than compensation (hourly wage).

AA, we were ALL shafted. My point is the mechanics got shafted the MOST because of concessionary contracts that were supposed to save jobs. Yet our ranks have fallen and we received nothing in return for lost work.
What some fail to realize is that when it comes to mechanics, it is very complicated because there are so many different areas of maintenance work. There are reductions in TUL coming and those who stay may be downgraded if they want to stay in TUL. those people will lose license pay. then there those who only get paid for which license they exercise. There is shop work with different rules, there are mechanic specialty areas with rules, there are OH rules, there are line rules..the list goes on. 
Did line cargo share in a windfall when CS was totally outsourced?

 

[1AA]

Average In House Maintenance Employees per Aircraft

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2013%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Productivity/MX/Average%20In%20House%20Maintenance%20Employees%20per%20Aircraft.htm

18.2 employees per aircraft for AA in 2013. The nearest competitor would be now Delta who had 11.2 employees per aircraft in 2013.

Some individuals like to focus on what the wages are for a SWA Mechanic. But they only had 3.4 employees per aircraft in 2013.

The data for 2014 hasn't been updated yet.

Obviously your not an AMT. SWA has one type of aircraft although they recently expanded to two others. My point is AA has multiple fleet types of wide body and narrow body. Bad comparison. But I guess it takes the same amount of fleet service to load and unload a MD 80 or 737 as well as a 777, 767 or A330 in your opinion. BTW a 777 B check requires more heads to service than a MD80 B check. The Wide bodies run two shifts and the narrow bodies run one shift. More ground time requires more heads. Does SWA have any 777's or 767's?

 

[MetalMover]

Average In House Maintenance Employees per Aircraft

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2013%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Productivity/MX/Average%20In%20House%20Maintenance%20Employees%20per%20Aircraft.htm

18.2 employees per aircraft for AA in 2013. The nearest competitor would be now Delta who had 11.2 employees per aircraft in 2013.

Some individuals like to focus on what the wages are for a SWA Mechanic. But they only had 3.4 employees per aircraft in 2013.

The data for 2014 hasn't been updated yet.

So are you advocating losing another several thousand mechanics so that we ALL may share in higher wages? So our ratio might best that of DL's? We are down to 7600 hundred INCLUDING ohm's and cleaners. We were near 12500 or thereabouts.....Where was my raise when the TWU was agreeing to more and more outsourcing?
Why doesn't AA outsource ALL of fleet service so the rest of us may reap the rewards? Does that sound good to you?

 

[WeAAsles]

Obviously your not an AMT. SWA has one type of aircraft although they recently expanded to two others. My point is AA has multiple fleet types of wide body and narrow body. Bad comparison. But I guess it takes the same amount of fleet service to load and unload a MD 80 or 737 as well as a 777, 767 or A330 in your opinion. BTW a 777 B check requires more heads to service than a MD80 B check. The Wide bodies run two shifts and the narrow bodies run one shift. More ground time requires more heads. Does SWA have any 777's or 767's?

Of course I know all of that having read the boards long enough. OK then how about you compare DL and UAL then?

AA 18.2
DL 11.2
UAL 9.6

Both DL and UAL are comparable sized airlines.

 

[WeAAsles]

So are you advocating losing another several thousand mechanics so that we ALL may share in higher wages?

No but some of your peers would have no problem with that.

So our ratio might best that of DL's? We are down to 7600 hundred INCLUDING ohm's and cleaners. We were near 12500 or thereabouts.....Where was my raise when the TWU was agreeing to more and more outsourcing?

AA concessions in 03, OAL BK's in the intervening years, and finally AA BK November 2011.

 
Why doesn't AA outsource ALL of fleet service so the rest of us may reap the rewards? Does that sound good to you?


We've had our fair share of outsourcing as well just to inform you. Would you like it if they outsource all of us so you can get a raise? Sorry if I'm not willing to vote myself out of a job for your "skilled" brethren.

 

[Overspeed]

So regardless of what happened and how people remember it happened for the last two decades plus, what are WE going to do to ensure the next deal is the best it can be? How do we make sure our voices are heard and that the committee understands what it is WE want from them? If there is prep going on, what is that prep? Is it how to get the top "must haves" in our next CBA? Money is a big thing but obviously not everything. I am sure our union brothers and sisters at UA/CO and SW are watching us and what we do. Let's not screw this up.
 
Understanding and remembering the past is important going forward but we can't be so mired in it we lose focus on the here and now.