TWU-IAM Association thread

[MetalMover]

 
Of course the TWU will intervene to keep as many employed, which has it's merit. However historically, there will be a cost.
 
 

Of course they can bring back whatever they want us to vote on, but the membership will have the opportunity to reject the contract if does not past muster. Then the TWU will preach we need the vote the contract in to save jobs, and the cycle of fear mongering continues.

 

[bigjets]

A good contract for the TWU leaders who own the contract is one that will get 50% +1 of the vote and doesn't impact their dues flow!
It takes a special kind of Stupid to think that treating one group differently than another who are both under the same agreement will work. The retiree medical is what killed the 2010 TA, you just don't tell one group they can keep IT and their sick bank while another has to pay for it with their earned sick bank.
That is like telling one of your offspring to clean their room while the other can leave it a mess.
Several on these forums are a Special Kind Of Stupid who believe some Vote No coalition was responsible for the TA failure.

That's a simplistic, popular dogma version of the vote. There were guys who voted down TA because of retired medical, also guys that thought their home life was attacked because they had to work weekends, guys who thought their OT was being taken away because of 7 day coverage. All sorts of reason I've heard from guys who wished they voted yes their reasons included

No 10 HW at 2.5x pay
No retro
No 12 sick days
No shift diff
No return of of the 2001 contract
Because I always vote NO

So what we got was nothing for 5 years probably 7 years by the time we are done.

 

[WNMECH]

If to me what is eventually agreed to sux beyond belief I'll advocate against it and vote no and hope others agree with me.

Yeah right.
I'll believe it when I see it.

"sux beyond belief", that's a mighty high bar you have set for a no vote.
I guess if it is just simply a turd, you will vote yes.

 

[WeAAsles]

Yeah right.I'll believe it when I see it."sux beyond belief", that's a mighty high bar you have set for a no vote.I guess if it is just simply a turd, you will vote yes.

The base wage part I already know I find acceptable. It's what's in the middle of the pie that "might" take away from that, that I'm going to focus my attention on.

What you consider a turd might not be the same as what I would? I'm sure we both probably have different needs (And bills to pay)

But I also might have even higher standards than you depending on what items come up? We'll see?

And I no longer live (and don't want to anymore) in NYC where it is now past the point that what you get there isn't worth the price you pay. South Florida works fine by me.

 

[2ndGENAMT]

That's a simplistic, popular dogma version of the vote. There were guys who voted down TA because of retired medical, also guys that thought their home life was attacked because they had to work weekends, guys who thought their OT was being taken away because of 7 day coverage. All sorts of reason I've heard from guys who wished they voted yes their reasons included
No 10 HW at 2.5x pay
No retro
No 12 sick days
No shift diff
No return of of the 2001 contract
Because I always vote NO
So what we got was nothing for 5 years probably 7 years by the time we are done.

In the first paragraph you laid out three concessionary items followed by a list of items lost in 2003 that were only partially or not restored at all and you claim that some loudmouths brought the whole thing down. It was a cost neutral concessionary TA that was shot down by a good majority of members. That is Simplistic!

As far as getting nothing for 5+ years, it's called Hindsight..

 

[scorpion 2]

The base wage part I already know I find acceptable. It's what's in the middle of the pie that "might" take away from that, that I'm going to focus my attention on.

What you consider a turd might not be the same as what I would? I'm sure we both probably have different needs (And bills to pay)

But I also might have even higher standards than you depending on what items come up? We'll see?

And I no longer live (and don't want to anymore) in NYC where it is now past the point that what you get there isn't worth the price you pay. South Florida works fine by me.

You said nothing about turds you said your no vote bar was set at sux beyond belief. I actually believe you. 

 

[WeAAsles]

You said nothing about turds you said your no vote bar was set at sux beyond belief. I actually believe you. 

Yea but what do some of you guys consider a turd? We used to have A $3.00 OT meal allowance in our contract. Some people might consider not getting that back to make it a turd? I don't need or care about the chump change.

 

[bigjets]

In the first paragraph you laid out three concessionary items followed by a list of items lost in 2003 that were only partially or not restored at all and you claim that some loudmouths brought the whole thing down. It was a cost neutral concessionary TA that was shot down by a good majority of members. That is Simplistic!
As far as getting nothing for 5+ years, it's called Hindsight..

It would be hindsight is 20/20 if I didnt advocate for signing the TA in 2010. Turned out we would $40k in our pockets and 3 weeks of sick in our sick banks. Which is what I said we should do.

With the FA contract Bob and the know nothing's from the FA group said they should vote NO because Delta might get more money and the arbitrator will rule in the FAs favor, with profit sharing and a me too clause for health ins. And Bob wrote several novels with facts and figures on why the arbitrator would rule in FAs favor. He was obviously wrong, no matter how well meaning he is. Bobs heart is definitely in the right place, but head is in the clouds.

The FAs voted NO, they lost $81m off the top then lost every ruling from the arbitrator. Including a less flexible schedule. The company GAVE the $81m to the FAs, you know the same company that the know nothing's say is just looking to fire anybody.

Now is the time for a great contract, economy is good and AA is making a billion a quarter.
I fear the big mouth know nothing's will delay negotiations until the next economic crisis.

Remember pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered

 

[WeAAsles]

It would be hindsight is 20/20 if I didnt advocate for signing the TA in 2010. Turned out we would $40k in our pockets and 3 weeks of sick in our sick banks. Which is what I said we should do.

With the FA contract Bob and the know nothing's from the FA group said they should vote NO because Delta might get more money and the arbitrator will rule in the FAs favor, with profit sharing and a me too clause for health ins. And Bob wrote several novels with facts and figures on why the arbitrator would rule in FAs favor. He was obviously wrong, no matter how well meaning he is. Bobs heart is definitely in the right place, but head is in the clouds.

The FAs voted NO, they lost $81m off the top then lost every ruling from the arbitrator. Including a less flexible schedule. The company GAVE the $81m to the FAs, you know the same company that the know nothing's say is just looking to fire anybody.

Now is the time for a great contract, economy is good and AA is making a billion a quarter.
I fear the big mouth know nothing's will delay negotiations until the next economic crisis.

Remember pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered

bigjets, thought you might find this interesting? I'm sure you've heard of this character Rock Soloman?
 
Calling on William J. Baer, Esq, Assistant Attorney General, Antitrust Division, Department of Justice
William J. Baer, Esq, Assistant Attorney General, Antitrust Division.
 
Dear Mr. Baer,
I am writing you today as a flight attendant with American Airlines represented by the Association of Professional Flight Attendants (APFA) with the intent of filing a complaint.
As you know, American Airlines merged with U.S. Airways last year. As part of that merger, APFA President Laura Glading agreed to an expedited negotiations process with U.S. Airways CEO Doug Parker to reach a single-carrier contract with the newly formed airline. That agreement, initially referred to as the “Bridge Agreement,” was later called the Conditional Labor Agreement (CLA), and it outlined how the APFA would negotiate with the newly merged airline. Last December the CLA’s resulting tentative agreement failed to ratify because it fell short on the promises made by American’s newly elected chairman, Doug Parker. It was touted as being “industry leading,” but fell far short of that mark.

https://callingonthedoj.wordpress.com/

 

[scorpion 2]

Yea but what do some of you guys consider a turd? We used to have A $3.00 OT meal allowance in our contract. Some people might consider not getting that back to make it a turd? I don't need or care about the chump change.

You are nothing but chump change. You switch directions like the Oklahoma wind when your posts are called bullsh!t and challenged by other posters. The only question I have is if you are a international stooge or a company stooge? You are Not a union man! 

 

[WeAAsles]

You are nothing but chump change. You switch directions like the Oklahoma wind when your posts are called bullsh!t and challenged by other posters. The only question I have is if you are a international stooge or a company stooge? You are Not a union man!

Yea I guess I should be a radical nutball like some of you kooks are?

 

[Vortilon]

That's a simplistic, popular dogma version of the vote. There were guys who voted down TA because of retired medical, also guys that thought their home life was attacked because they had to work weekends, guys who thought their OT was being taken away because of 7 day coverage. All sorts of reason I've heard from guys who wished they voted yes their reasons included

No 10 HW at 2.5x pay
No retro
No 12 sick days
No shift diff
No return of of the 2001 contract
Because I always vote NO

So what we got was nothing for 5 years probably 7 years by the time we are done.

 
You really sound like you're afraid of negotiating.  Are you like that when you shop for a car, or buy a house?   You keep calling two thirds of the AA AMTs "know nothings" for voting that 2010 TA down.  Fact is, nobody knew our negotiating team was going to let us down - again - that includes you.   Now here you are, already shaking in you boots that the AMTs will vote down the first offer.  Calling people "know nothings", as if that is going to somehow convince people to change their minds, and vote yes.  I expect the company will offer the right amount of money to get us where we need to be; however, that is where the TWU international steps in, and starts the horse trading.  By the time the international gets done with the company's offer, AAs AMTs will be relegated to the bottom of the industry for pay and benefits for another 5 years.  That will be courtesy of the spineless yes voters like yourself.

 

[Bob Owens]

 
You really sound like you're afraid of negotiating.  Are you like that when you shop for a car, or buy a house?   You keep calling two thirds of the AA AMTs "know nothings" for voting that 2010 TA down.  Fact is, nobody knew our negotiating team was going to let us down - again - that includes you.   Now here you are, already shaking in you boots that the AMTs will vote down the first offer.  Calling people "know nothings", as if that is going to somehow convince people to change their minds, and vote yes.  I expect the company will offer the right amount of money to get us where we need to be; however, that is where the TWU international steps in, and starts the horse trading.  By the time the international gets done with the company's offer, AAs AMTs will be relegated to the bottom of the industry for pay and benefits for another 5 years.  That will be courtesy of the spineless yes voters like yourself.

 
 
He calls 2/3rds of the members "know nothings" when in fact the members were given more information than ever before. They had the International and the Company selling it and they had the Presidents they elected telling them whats wrong with it. The members were fully aware of what they rejected, a ZERO cost contract, improvements in pay were paid for with concessions in benefits and work rules, what the members  and those who recommended the NO vote could not have known, since there was no precedent in history, was that after rejecting it the International had ZERO intention of moving on to the next step in the process that workers in this industry have followed for 75 years,  in fact they blocked moving on to the next step even into BK nearly 18 months AFTER the members rejected the TA.  Had the International informed the NMB in August of 2010 that we needed to move on to the next step we most likely would have had a PEB crafted agreement which, based on historical records, would have included retro and brought us up to industry standards by December of 2010. 
 
The fact is the NO vote didn't screw us, it stopped us from agreeing to a zero cost agreement, the International screwed us by not bringing the process forward. 
 
Lets look at this from the company position, the other work groups on the property, including other TWU groups had good cause to keep kicking the can down the road till BK, they were ahead of most of the industry at that time. As the Economist Tom Roth said "You are better off going into BK fat than skinny". (The opposite of what Jim Little and Sonny Hall said in 2003 when they told us that we needed to give concessions prior to BK which they said was "inevitable") The company refused to give any of us anything other than a ZERO cost contract because all the other groups on the property were in negotiations and all of them were industry leading either in wages, work rules or both. So going into a PEB with the mechanics would not have been a bad thing for the company on the whole, what they gave up with the mechanics, which would have made them pay industry standard, and allowed them to hold on to and attract qualified replacements necessary for the operation would have been offset by what they gained from the other work groups that had them above industry standard, primarily work rules such as Scope. Sure AA would have had an argument as far as mechanics Scope as well, but they ended up getting that in BK anyway. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Remember pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered

 
 

Asking for what everyone else had makes us Hogs? 
 
 
If that saying were true there would be a lot of slaughtered CEOs out there. Not seeing it, yet. 

 

[Overspeed]

Bob,
You've made it very clear about your opinion of the past. What are you going to do going forward to make sure that stuff never happens again? Are your fellow board members onboard?