TWU and IAM representation alliance vote

[xUT]

All classifications bring value & skill(s) to the table, and ALL have a role in both safety & generating revenue.

 
 

All are essential for the successful running of an airline.

You go right ahead a keep on driving that wedge, though.

 
 

And Little has some paper from a diploma mill. WGAF?

Apparently, not enough people since many of these guys still hold office... But we'll fight over the name on the door for years on end. When that gets old we turn on each other while people like you laugh & laugh.

Like I said; our own worst enemies...

 
 

Yep. The better question is why we continue to allow it to happen.

 
 

That's the easy answer. The more inconvenient truth is that we all sat by and allowed it to happen.

 
No truer words Kev!
 
Instead of picking each others pocket, we should support wage increases for 'everybody'.
Not taking from one group for the pennies that corporate will put in their pockets.
 
 

"This is something that someone here should explain to me because it must be beyond my comprehension.
I hear this coat tale crap wayyyyyyyyyy to much without a justification for this type of mentality.
In fact, this type of mentality continues to divide us and provides fuel for the pyre.
JMHO-The people that believe this are delusional and in some respects are insecure as to whom they are.
Do you (meaning the individuals that adhere to this philosophy) think that by ranting to reduce the wages of
others will somehow(?) put their(!) pennies in you own pocket?
(FYI, the penny watchers are scooping up all of the pennies, not you).
Would it not be more logical to state that if a pickle picker employee makes X
then I should make = X + (X*j) for my skills?
And, if the value of X is raised, would not the formula of I should make be raised as well?
For those that adhere to the mantra to reduce the wages of those that you deem below
your status in your misguided search for higher wages
are not only belittling yourselves but your fellow workers.If we work together to raise
the value of X then we work to raise the value of I should make'"

Maybe some day people will actually get this and realize it's "US" against "THEM" instead of "US against "US"...
Take Care,
B) xUT

 

[NYer]

 
 
NYer
 
WOW, AMFA Knew it would bring the airline to its knees? That is not what you guys have said that AMFA is and always been a mom and pop union, No Power, No money? --I know you have AMFA in your mind constantly, but it was the Eastern employees that knew they were going to bring Eastern to it's knees. (re-read the original post when someone wanted to make the point about the IAM.)
 
So how could they know that their strike would cripple the carrier. The Pilots scabbed, the F/A scabbed and the IAM did as well. So the BIG unions continued to work while AMFA represented mechanics and related walked a picket line. --Under the NMB process, everyone else must continue to report to work.
 
After the Union members authorised a strike why would they then cut the support from the Leaders by demanding to vote on a contract that was not acceptable. --Voting for everything is the a point brought in favor of choosing AMFA rather than staying with the TWU. It just so happens that for the NWA strike, although a strike vote was passed the final offer from the airline was not brought back by the leadership. It's just the facts.
 
( in the eyes of the Leadership) Union members should support the Leaders when they stand up for the members Unlike the TWU leadership. They (the TWU) will bring any POS back and even push for it to pass. I am talking the TWU Intl. reps. Since the AMT Line local wanted to vote our T/A down. --So you're OK with the leadership to decide for you what is worthy and what isn't worthy.  And if the Members, in your opinion should "support the leaders when they stand up for the members" why is a negative talking point when the TWU and IAM decided on the Association...without Member input. If you want to argue that is wrong, you then can't argue that bringing back a TA is wrong since both entail the Members making their own decisions.
 
After NWA had the carrier set to do what it did there was no turning back since the end was near. "YES" they even had scabs there as well.
 
But tell us when was the last time the TWU Pushed the Almighty AA to the brink and got for its members any real substantial benefits. -- When was the last time any airline or union brought their employer to brink and got substantial benefits? Not just AMFA, mind you, but anyone.
 
Just about wages is a bad thing, what about the fight the unions of the past made to give you what you have today. The Holidays and everything else, vacation, O/T pay rates. --In the 1950's, when unions were at their peak we received many items we enjoy today. We had the numbers, we had the political influence and as important if not more important...we had the laws on our side. That was a long, long time ago and those tactics no longer work in the airlines...or much of anywhere else.
 
You seem to forget or maybe your just to young to remember that it was the unions standing together in the past that got you the money you make today. If you are a fleet worker that job yrs ago was a part time thing set up for kids to work their way through College now its a full time job to drive the crapper trucks and throw bags. I could say more jobs but the TWU gave away cleaners and the fuelers.
 
Something else you don't know that there were many EASTERN mechanics at NWA  well. Both in ATL and MSP. NWA mechanics have always been fighters as far back as I can remember. They were IAM at one time and then the IAM was strong, but the iAM became more about itself then who they represent. So it was personal there as well.
 
Tell us that you would not stand up for what you believe? Go Ahead....
 
If you can then YOU are a True TWU supporter, in other words,  more of a company man than a true UNION guy. --Only people that think as you do is a union guy? That's the litmus test, we have to pass your background check to be deemed worthy.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Ramp was a part time job to go through college?

Biggest load of horse crap!

700UW
 
That is right, and the Flight attendants were required to be a certain height and weight.
 
They were required to quit if they got pregnant, or gained weight, as they did not fit the requirements of the past. I can't say for sure but I think age was another requirement as well.
 
Now at AA there are many fleet/ramp that are in the unlimited part time pool. They also don't make the money they did yrs ago all thanks to the TWU. 

 

[NYer]

700UW
 
That is right, and the Flight attendants were required to be a certain height and weight.
 
They were required to quit if they got pregnant, or gained weight, as they did not fit the requirements of the past. I can't say for sure but I think age was another requirement as well.
 
Now at AA there are many fleet/ramp that are in the unlimited part time pool. They also don't make the money they did yrs ago all thanks to the TWU. 

 
unlimited?

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

And what about the letter Delle wrote to NW about taking more from ALL the IAM represented groups and take less from AMFA?
 
Then writing a letter to Roach begging for help, and Roach replying with things AMFA needed to fix and do, yet it all went on deaf ears, now didnt it?
 
And explain how Receipt and Dispatch, Air Starts and Deicing broke AMFA?
 
And I dont agree with Depace and his stand.

 
Newsflash - Struck work is Struck work.
 
You don't get to qualify it depending on how bad it did or didn't hurt the strikers.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 

 
 
NYer
 
WOW, AMFA Knew it would bring the airline to its knees? That is not what you guys have said that AMFA is and always been a mom and pop union, No Power, No money? --I know you have AMFA in your mind constantly, but it was the Eastern employees that knew they were going to bring Eastern to it's knees. (re-read the original post when someone wanted to make the point about the IAM.)
 
I did not know that,  were you there? All the employees all of us went, you simply can't blame one group. Even though most want to blame Charlie Bryant.
 
So how could they know that their strike would cripple the carrier. The Pilots scabbed, the F/A scabbed and the IAM did as well. So the BIG unions continued to work while AMFA represented mechanics and related walked a picket line. --Under the NMB process, everyone else must continue to report to work.
 
After the Union members authorised a strike why would they then cut the support from the Leaders by demanding to vote on a contract that was not acceptable. --Voting for everything is the a point brought in favor of choosing AMFA rather than staying with the TWU. It just so happens that for the NWA strike, although a strike vote was passed the final offer from the airline was not brought back by the leadership. It's just the facts.
 
 
O.V. Delle did not feel that what NWA was offering was in the best interest of of the AMFA members. Many today still feel they did the right thing as did the Eastern guys.
 
 
( in the eyes of the Leadership) Union members should support the Leaders when they stand up for the members Unlike the TWU leadership. They (the TWU) will bring any POS back and even push for it to pass. I am talking the TWU Intl. reps. Since the AMT Line local wanted to vote our T/A down. --So you're OK with the leadership to decide for you what is worthy and what isn't worthy.  And if the Members, in your opinion should "support the leaders when they stand up for the members" why is a negative talking point when the TWU and IAM decided on the Association...without Member input. If you want to argue that is wrong, you then can't argue that bringing back a TA is wrong since both entail the Members making their own decisions.  
 
The difference is that TWO unions NOT  leadership is going to decide my future. When its all about dues that is what it different for me. The circumstances when a strike vote is taken than a joining of two unions to keep one from fighting the other thus causing the Looser to be done away with. per the AFL-CIO agreement. Nop raid clause.
 
After NWA had the carrier set to do what it did there was no turning back since the end was near. "YES" they even had scabs there as well.
 
But tell us when was the last time the TWU Pushed the Almighty AA to the brink and got for its members any real substantial benefits. -- When was the last time any airline or union brought their employer to brink and got substantial benefits? Not just AMFA, mind you, but anyone.
 
 
​The airline would not take its employees to the brink were they would reap benefits, that would be the unions job. and since I can't include AMFA it would have to be EASTERN as they were in battles over $$ all the time.
 
Just about wages is a bad thing, what about the fight the unions of the past made to give you what you have today. The Holidays and everything else, vacation, O/T pay rates. --In the 1950's, when unions were at their peak we received many items we enjoy today. We had the numbers, we had the political influence and as important if not more important...we had the laws on our side. That was a long, long time ago and those tactics no longer work in the airlines...or much of anywhere else. Oh we don't have the numbers why is that?  So are you saying that its not a requirement to be a BIG and Powerful Union. Are you saying that the Lobbying Power of the three BIG unions the IAM/TWU/IBT is no more than the little ole AMFA?
 
You seem to forget or maybe your just to young to remember that it was the unions standing together in the past that got you the money you make today. If you are a fleet worker that job yrs ago was a part time thing set up for kids to work their way through College now its a full time job to drive the crapper trucks and throw bags. I could say more jobs but the TWU gave away cleaners and the fuelers.
 
Something else you don't know that there were many EASTERN mechanics at NWA  well. Both in ATL and MSP. NWA mechanics have always been fighters as far back as I can remember. They were IAM at one time and then the IAM was strong, but the iAM became more about itself then who they represent. So it was personal there as well.
 
Tell us that you would not stand up for what you believe? Go Ahead....
 
If you can then YOU are a True TWU supporter, in other words,  more of a company man than a true UNION guy. --Only people that think as you do is a union guy? That's the litmus test, we have to pass your background check to be deemed worthy.
 
You don't have to be worthy of any thing, you have your opinion and I have mine but don't tell me about what the mechanics did at EASTERN or NWA. I was a strike Leader at LAX
while at EASTERN, and many guys I worked with and still keep in contact with worked at NWA. After EAL.

 

 

[MetalMover]

That is a good question. 
 
I have a question for you. We had several people in TULE Fleet that went to school to get their A&P. What kind of hoops would they have to jump through to transfer to a mechanics position even though both have the same employer if the work groups had two separate UNIONS? It is not really relevant, I am just curious.  No hoops...They upgrade to mechanic, they just join whatever union represents at the time. If you became a pilot at AA, you would join the APA. 
 
I would have thought that would have been pretty obvious. The only "strength in numbers" TWU cares about is UNION dues. TWU has no issues giving away pension, vacation, and sick time because it does not affect THEIR bottom line. The only thing they care about is headcount and base pay. That is their "strength in numbers".  Good point. But there are those who truly believe the strength in numbers logic when trying to bring a company to their knees during negotiations.
 
"Concessions for job security" is the best scam AA/TWU ever came up with, and the fools just EAT IT UP. And NYer and WeAAsles are still buying into it.
 
You lost your "bargaining clout" the minute you allowed unlicensed mechanics to put tools on aircraft. I know you don't want to hear that but it is the truth. IF you do get AMFA I hope your work group puts a stop to that nonsense. Yes but remember the ones that allowed that to happen were the YES votes. It was under the TWU's watch when the OSM was created, later the SRP
 
That does not sound very UNION to me.  I was referring to each work group letting the chips fall where they may during their respective negotiations. Whatever each work group could gain at the table, the more power to them.  Pilots only worry about pilots, F/A's only about F/A's. So why NOT mechanics worrying about mechanics? The same for fleet service and the passenger service.
 
We all have to work as one to make the airline work. I think somewhere in the propaganda machine that is AA/TWU you forgot that. ​Of course, but some jobs warrant more compensation with responsibility. 
 
You are blaming other work groups for the result of a conspiracy by the AA/TWU conglomerate to reduce cost, increase profits, and maintain UNION dues. I do not blame any work group but I blame the TWU. I was here in the day when the mechanics were the minority. We could not get a mechanic elected to local dog catcher. 
 
TWU takes dues from the other groups and those other work groups have a right and an expectation to be represented. It is TWU's responsibility to get the best deal they can for those work groups. As it should be. however before maintenance separated, EVERY TWU member was able to vote on mechanic pay and license premium. We were the minority...Wanna guess how those contract votes ended up?
 
I agree the TWU has failed you miserably. Instead of blaming other work groups for "riding your coat tails"  what you should be blaming is your negotiator. Again, before maintenance separated, the negotiating team was primarily fleet service. Again, you want to know how the mechanics made out?

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

And hence that is why you cant get enough cards, you and others are on here begging for cards, and the majority of the Class and Craft arent on this message board.

 
Well you and a few others are obviously concerned a majority of the class and craft might be, as you're here everyday.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
unlimited?

NYER
 
I used that word since if most companies keep the employees at less then 40hrs a week  they are considered part time.
 
But how many are still considered part time even though they pick up shifts and work overtime and make more than the part time status requirements that AA sets to limit their full time status. How many of your co-workers that are part time work more than 160 hrs a month.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

I will have the letter tomorrow, already in the works and if you were skilled labor you would be your own class and craft.
 
http://www.aviationpros.com/article/10385931/dol-classification-of-mechanics
 
Actually, it's the US Department of Labor and their Bureau of Statistics that classifies A&P Mechanics as unskilled (blue collar) labor.

 
So you do know where it is - good.  Please provide the link that classifies the mechanics as unskilled.

 

[MetalMover]

 
That strike was called, and if you speak with their Members, with the full knowledge it would bring the airlines to its knees. They made the call that they would not let Lorenzo do what he did to Continental to Eastern. Their fight was personal and not about getting wage increases, unlike NWA....If it would have been just about wage increases then it was a bad call.
 
The NWA situations was markedly different and the strategy failed. The Members did authorize the strike vote, but they were not allowed to vote on the last offer before the strike and two subsequent offers during the strike. Eventually they came back on the airline's terms.

AMFA/NWA was not just about wages. You are trying so desparately to distinguish  the AMFA strike from the IAM strike. They were both about survival. One against EAL. The other against NWA. You are claiming that the AMFA strike failed because they went back under the airline's terms. So what about the IAM? Was that a success causing a great airline to shut down forcing tens of thousands to the street?

 

[MetalMover]

 

 

 
In order to save the AMFA represented employees and more hardship they AMFA's Leaders decided to give up the representation to ease the transition with Delta. -AMFA decided to save their Members more "hardship" by allowing them to go to a non-union shop to "ease the transition." Whaaaa?
 

 

Who needs a non-union shop when the TWU is representing you?

 

[NYer]

 

 


 
 
NYer
 
WOW, AMFA Knew it would bring the airline to its knees? That is not what you guys have said that AMFA is and always been a mom and pop union, No Power, No money? --I know you have AMFA in your mind constantly, but it was the Eastern employees that knew they were going to bring Eastern to it's knees. (re-read the original post when someone wanted to make the point about the IAM.)
 
I did not know that,  were you there? All the employees all of us went, you simply can't blame one group. Even though most want to blame Charlie Bryant.
 
So how could they know that their strike would cripple the carrier. The Pilots scabbed, the F/A scabbed and the IAM did as well. So the BIG unions continued to work while AMFA represented mechanics and related walked a picket line. --Under the NMB process, everyone else must continue to report to work.
 
After the Union members authorised a strike why would they then cut the support from the Leaders by demanding to vote on a contract that was not acceptable. --Voting for everything is the a point brought in favor of choosing AMFA rather than staying with the TWU. It just so happens that for the NWA strike, although a strike vote was passed the final offer from the airline was not brought back by the leadership. It's just the facts.
 
 
O.V. Delle did not feel that what NWA was offering was in the best interest of of the AMFA members. Many today still feel they did the right thing as did the Eastern guys.
 
 
( in the eyes of the Leadership) Union members should support the Leaders when they stand up for the members Unlike the TWU leadership. They (the TWU) will bring any POS back and even push for it to pass. I am talking the TWU Intl. reps. Since the AMT Line local wanted to vote our T/A down. --So you're OK with the leadership to decide for you what is worthy and what isn't worthy.  And if the Members, in your opinion should "support the leaders when they stand up for the members" why is a negative talking point when the TWU and IAM decided on the Association...without Member input. If you want to argue that is wrong, you then can't argue that bringing back a TA is wrong since both entail the Members making their own decisions.  
 
The difference is that TWO unions NOT  leadership is going to decide my future. When its all about dues that is what it different for me. The circumstances when a strike vote is taken than a joining of two unions to keep one from fighting the other thus causing the Looser to be done away with. per the AFL-CIO agreement. Nop raid clause.
 
After NWA had the carrier set to do what it did there was no turning back since the end was near. "YES" they even had scabs there as well.
 
But tell us when was the last time the TWU Pushed the Almighty AA to the brink and got for its members any real substantial benefits. -- When was the last time any airline or union brought their employer to brink and got substantial benefits? Not just AMFA, mind you, but anyone.
 
 
​The airline would not take its employees to the brink were they would reap benefits, that would be the unions job. and since I can't include AMFA it would have to be EASTERN as they were in battles over $$ all the time.
 
Just about wages is a bad thing, what about the fight the unions of the past made to give you what you have today. The Holidays and everything else, vacation, O/T pay rates. --In the 1950's, when unions were at their peak we received many items we enjoy today. We had the numbers, we had the political influence and as important if not more important...we had the laws on our side. That was a long, long time ago and those tactics no longer work in the airlines...or much of anywhere else. Oh we don't have the numbers why is that?  So are you saying that its not a requirement to be a BIG and Powerful Union. Are you saying that the Lobbying Power of the three BIG unions the IAM/TWU/IBT is no more than the little ole AMFA?
 
You seem to forget or maybe your just to young to remember that it was the unions standing together in the past that got you the money you make today. If you are a fleet worker that job yrs ago was a part time thing set up for kids to work their way through College now its a full time job to drive the crapper trucks and throw bags. I could say more jobs but the TWU gave away cleaners and the fuelers.
 
Something else you don't know that there were many EASTERN mechanics at NWA  well. Both in ATL and MSP. NWA mechanics have always been fighters as far back as I can remember. They were IAM at one time and then the IAM was strong, but the iAM became more about itself then who they represent. So it was personal there as well.
 
Tell us that you would not stand up for what you believe? Go Ahead....
 
If you can then YOU are a True TWU supporter, in other words,  more of a company man than a true UNION guy. --Only people that think as you do is a union guy? That's the litmus test, we have to pass your background check to be deemed worthy.
 
You don't have to be worthy of any thing, you have your opinion and I have mine but don't tell me about what the mechanics did at EASTERN or NWA. I was a strike Leader at LAX
while at EASTERN, and many guys I worked with and still keep in contact with worked at NWA. After EAL.

 

 


 
So. Mr. Delle, from AMFA decided the proposal was unworthy of bringing it back for a vote. He made a choice, for the good of the Members. They never got to vote on that proposal or two others after that, while they remained on strike for 18 months. When the last proposal was brought for the Members to vote, it passed 72% to 28% and it was substantially worse than the original. BUT, it's OK because the leader decided what's best for the NWA members and at least they showed guts. Correct?
 
You like AMFA so they can decide for you what isn't your best interest....You don't like the TWU or the IAM so they can't decide for you what is or isn't in your best interest.

 

[MetalMover]

 
You are free to believe what you wish. You are free to want to go anywhere you wish. You are free to try and persuade as many as you'd like to make a change.
 
The issue is that if you want to make the change, in my opinion, you need to offer more than we need AMFA because the TWU sucks. I'd rather not jump from one sinking ship into another that may have more holes in it.
 
So far, AMFA doesn't seem to offer anything other than it's not the TWU. That might be enough for some, but it has so far not been enough for the majority.

The TWU sucking is good enough reason for a lot of us. Show me where the TWU has ever put up a real fight during ANY contract WITHOUT giving anything up? 

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

And it hasn't changed,so why don't you post something that shows the DOL classifies them as skilled labor?

 
Okay, I'm asking you.
 
You brought it up, in a previous post you claimed where it could be found, go there bring up where it lists Aircraft mechanics or technicians as unskilled and provide a link.