TWU and IAM representation alliance vote

[NYer]

Just like you have your reasons for liking the TWU, there are those of us who have our reasons for not liking them. Should your views and opinions outweigh those who disagree with you? And vice versa?
Do you truly believe that there are thousands of mechanics who want the TWU gone just because we believe the lies about them? Are we all reacting to lies and an inaccurate picture of the truth as you say? 
Do you understand that most of us that want the TWU gone is because of our experience under them?
Are we all just getting on the anti-TWU bandwagon blindly?
 
What do you not understand that we dislike them because of what they have done? They have bent over backwards to accommodate managements' every desire. No, they have bent US over.
Whether or not AMFA gets in, it will NEVER change how we feel about them.

 
You are free to believe what you wish. You are free to want to go anywhere you wish. You are free to try and persuade as many as you'd like to make a change.
 
The issue is that if you want to make the change, in my opinion, you need to offer more than we need AMFA because the TWU sucks. I'd rather not jump from one sinking ship into another that may have more holes in it.
 
So far, AMFA doesn't seem to offer anything other than it's not the TWU. That might be enough for some, but it has so far not been enough for the majority.

 

[NYer]

 
 
You set the critique
 
Based on your repeated original statement where you are attempting to critique AMFA by way of "current mechanic membership vs past mechanic membership" numbers - the group you're advocating for an alliance with, the IAM has a far more atrocious record of "current mechanic membership vs past mechanic membership"  numbers
 
Its not my opinion the IAM is worse than AMFA - its a fact.

So it is a fact, for you, that the IAM is worse than AMFA because they have a more "atrocious" record of current mechanic membership vs past mechanics membership.
 
OK. That means that the AMFA is atrocious, not as atrocious as the IAM, but atrocious nevertheless. Your words.

 

[NYer]

You spend an awful lot of time and effort to make us see the error of our ways with amfa. Seems to me your more worried about self preservation. If maintenance left it would not take long for fleet service to be contracted out. Its a FACT the twu has used maintenance to further other work groups pay and benefits. Remember the old "loaf of bread cost the same for all of us"?

 
Such an old argument.The fault lies with everyone else why mechanics can't get their pay. Let's go to AMFA so we can finally get our pay.
 
OK. Go ahead. Can you get the cards? They've been trying for so long.....Actually, it's been posted here that the AMFA movement is "grass roots," I guess the AMFA National is not interested or doesn't have the necessary funds to organize the very same airline that gave them their birth in 1961.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

I will have the letter tomorrow, already in the works and if you were skilled labor you would be your own class and craft.
 
http://www.aviationpros.com/article/10385931/dol-classification-of-mechanics
 
Actually, it's the US Department of Labor and their Bureau of Statistics that classifies A&P Mechanics as unskilled (blue collar) labor.

All that needs to be said is this one sentence.
 
 the need for ensuring enough qualified certificated professionals to oversee this mushrooming noncertificated workforce is growing.
 
That is the one and only reason why mechanics are classified as "non skilled". To call them skilled would mean the workforce as a whole would have to adhere to a minimum standard and standards cost money.
 
The socialist government you libtards love so much (and want to regulate everything) is selling out your profession and the safety of the public so business can have low cost labor. 

 

[TRAVIS]

DOL(Department Of Labor) Classification of Mechanic's
http://www.aviationpros.com/article/10385931/dol-classification-of-mechanics
 
by Brian Finnegan On Feb 1, 2005
It has been a long time since we updated you on how the U.S. Department Of Labor (DOL) classifies aviation mechanics. The Professional Aviation Maintenance Association (PAMA) is concerned about how that classification negatively affects aviation safety and the shortage of FAA certificated airframe and power plant (A&P) mechanics.
John Goglia, PAMA vice president of government and technical programs, began working to achieve these goals in 1997 while he was a member of the National Transportation Safety Board. Goglia, along with Bill O'Brien, FAA national resource specialist for maintenance, delivered a presentation to the Standard Occupational Classification (SOC) Revision Policy Committee on Feb. 9, 1998, arguing the merits of establishing an SOC code specifically for FAA certificated A&P mechanics. The committee was receptive, but the logistics of the change required a modification of the national census database. Because the database for the 2000 census had already been written, it would have cost more than $100,000 to make the change. The money was not available and it ended there.
However, the concept was perceived as having merit and Goglia and O'Brien were encouraged to resubmit their request and justifications in the 2005 time frame for the 2010 census. And PAMA has begun anew the process of establishing its own labor code.
Current classification
A&P mechanics are currently included under the general Standard Occupational Classification "Aircraft Mechanics and Service Technicians," which is a subset of the Major Group, "Installation, Maintenance, and Repair Occupations." This subset group classification of certificated and non certificated mechanics and service technicians has a huge negative effect on safety by preventing our industry from knowing how many certificated A&P's are actually working in the industry and where they are located. It is within the Major Group, as its own subset, that PAMA wants to see "FAA Certificated Airframe and Power plant Mechanics" specifically classified.
Impact on safety
The FAA cannot reliably tell us how many A&P's there are working in aviation and therefore cannot accurately forecast future supply. This directly impacts safety. Mechanics with airframe and/or power plant ratings have privileges that allow them to return aircraft to service. Service technicians do not. Certificated A&P mechanics are highly educated, receiving the equivalent of a bachelor's degree through FAR Part 147 aviation maintenance technician education programs. Service technicians do not. The essence of airworthiness is built on a strong foundation of maintenance excellence performed by professionals with FAA certification. While few can argue against the merits of putting warm bodies on certain noncritical or specifically targeted tasks, the use of non certificated service technicians will never be an argument in support of improving aviation safety.
Use of certificated and non certificated
Our industry is evolving and the need for ensuring enough qualified certificated professionals to oversee this mushrooming non certificated workforce is growing. While many aviation businesses do use non certificated technicians in the back shops or to work on aircraft under the auspices of FAA certificated mechanics, we have already seen aviation accidents where not enough certificated people were available to advise and train those that need information. That trend will continue as fewer and fewer certificated mechanics become available.
Effect on growth
As aviation businesses begin to feel the impact of fewer certificated mechanics, their ability to grow or add efficiency will be negatively affected. Establishing our own SOC code will allow us to better understand the depth of the shortage and prepare us to focus increased educational opportunities and scholarships in the affected geographic regions. A labor code that recognizes only FAA certificated mechanics will provide the critical information business needs to efficiently and profitably expand.
The Labor Department classification of "aircraft mechanics and service technicians" has been on the books for many years. Back when our airports were only fenced to keep the deer off the runway and the glamour of flight was enough to draw sufficient mechanically savvy technicians into our profession, the effect of our generic labor classification was minimized.
Times have changed
To maintain modern aircraft, mechanics must be both technically adept and highly educated. The airport fences now have barbed wire and closed circuit video monitoring. The romance of aviation, while still present, can no longer be relied upon to attract sufficient young professionals to our industry. Establishing our own SOC is an important step toward assuring we have enough aviation maintenance professionals to assure the safety of our fleet.
There is also a long-standing impression among aviation mechanics that their occupation is classified as "semi-skilled" or "unskilled" by the DOL. Unfortunately, this is effectively true. Labor maintains that it bases its groupings in part on its industry sector or function, not on skill level. In fact, you will not find a "skilled" or "unskilled" classification anywhere in the code. By classifying FAA certificated mechanics together with non-certificated service technicians, DOL has effectively classified everyone at the lower skilled, noncertificated level.
PAMA is working hard to educate the flying public, our government, and the aviation community on the important role that only FAA certificated mechanics can play in assuring aviation safety. Personal pride, technical excellence, and FAA certification is the hallmark of an aviation maintenance professional.
Stay strong! AMT

 

[Kev3188]

I work under a IAM contract and don't have 100k to make the change myself.
 
(The committee was receptive, but the logistics of the change required a modification of the national census database. Because the database for the 2000 census had already been written, it would have cost more than $100,000 to make the change. The money was not available and it ended there.
However, the concept was perceived as having merit and Goglia and O'Brien were encouraged to resubmit their request and justifications in the 2005 timeframe for the 2010 census. And PAMA has begun anew the process of establishing its own labor code.)
 
I would donate to the cause and if every AMT put in $20.00 It may happen...

Start a PayPal or Gofundme account. I'll be happy to kick in...

 

[TRAVIS]

Start a PayPal or Gofundme account. I'll be happy to kick in...

I wander how far that would go? If it was only that easy I think it would have been done by now.
I think I'll try a e-mail to PAMA and see what's up new with this.
 
If one of the unions would get on this and use there power it could be done very easy and I would stand behind them 100% and have my vote...
That would show me some kind of support for my Profession and would put the Licensed Professional AMT''s in better position at negotiation's.

 

[Kev3188]

Probably easier than we think? I dunno, but I'm serious about being willing to help.

 

[TRAVIS]

Kev I spout off about the coattail thing but it's not the ramp or other non licensed workers that we have been put in with, It's more the unions who have used us as chip's in the negotiation's that make A&P's feel used when we look at other in our field and their wages.
Some of us get fired up when we have a non-licensed members who knows he or she does benefit's from having the ATM's in that work group try to hold us back from moving on only for their best interests and we know it.  

 

[TRAVIS]

Probably easier than we think? I dunno, but I'm serious about being willing to help.

I know you are.. You are one of the level headed ones on here and have my respect. 

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
That strike was called, and if you speak with their Members, with the full knowledge it would bring the airlines to its knees. They made the call that they would not let Lorenzo do what he did to Continental to Eastern. Their fight was personal and not about getting wage increases, unlike NWA....If it would have been just about wage increases then it was a bad call.
 
The NWA situations was markedly different and the strategy failed. The Members did authorize the strike vote, but they were not allowed to vote on the last offer before the strike and two subsequent offers during the strike. Eventually they came back on the airline's terms.

 
 
NYer
 
WOW, AMFA Knew it would bring the airline to its knees? That is not what you guys have said that AMFA is and always been a mom and pop union, No Power, No money?
 
So how could they know that their strike would cripple the carrier. The Pilots scabbed, the F/A scabbed and the IAM did as well. So the BIG unions continued to work while AMFA represented mechanics and related walked a picket line.
 
After the Union members authorised a strike why would they then cut the support from the Leaders by demanding to vote on a contract that was not acceptable. ( in the eyes of the Leadership) Union members should support the Leaders when they stand up for the members Unlike the TWU leadership. They (the TWU) will bring any POS back and even push for it to pass. I am talking the TWU Intl. reps. Since the AMT Line local wanted to vote our T/A down.
 
After NWA had the carrier set to do what it did there was no turning back since the end was near. "YES" they even had scabs there as well.
 
But tell us when was the last time the TWU Pushed the Almighty AA to the brink and got for its members any real substantial benefits.
 
Just about wages is a bad thing, what about the fight the unions of the past made to give you what you have today. The Holidays and everything else, vacation, O/T pay rates.
 
You seem to forget or maybe your just to young to remember that it was the unions standing together in the past that got you the money you make today. If you are a fleet worker that job yrs ago was a part time thing set up for kids to work their way through College now its a full time job to drive the crapper trucks and throw bags. I could say more jobs but the TWU gave away cleaners and the fuelers. 
 
Something else you don't know that there were many EASTERN mechanics at NWA  well. Both in ATL and MSP. NWA mechanics have always been fighters as far back as I can remember. They were IAM at one time and then the IAM was strong, but the iAM became more about itself then who they represent. So it was personal there as well.
 
Tell us that you would not stand up for what you believe? Go Ahead....
 
If you can then YOU are a True TWU supporter, in other words,  more of a company man than a true UNION guy.

 

[700UW]

Ramp was a part time job to go through college?

Biggest load of horse crap!

 

[TRAVIS]

Most of the ramp at AWA back in the early 1990's were Part Time collage kids in Las / Phx they got flight Bennie and worked nights and went to school in the AM.
Some used it as a second job for flight and medical benefits.

 

[737823]

Ramp was a part time job to go through college?
Biggest load of horse crap!

Based on the UA agreement the IAM supports making middle class jobs part time jobs (unlimited part time, temporary employees, and split shifts).

Josh

 

[xUT]

Going back and reading that made my blood boil. DePace et al make me sick.

I remember watching my IAM co-workers doing my job immediately after I left and picked up my picket sign. The cowards would not even look me in the eye. They would go to work using back gates and out of the way doors to get in. Rats and cockroaches, all of them.

Anyone of them could have refused the work based on what was in their contract. Instead, the IAM "leadership" encouraged them to perform struck work. And one of the biggest defenders of that still resides here on this board.

Yea, I hear you.
This happens every time there is an AMFA discussion.
They have to regurgitate lies and half truths over and over hoping it will stick.
Good at least you and some others remember the facts.
NWA guys at SFO were stellar.
I still have contact with one of them.
Take Care,
xUT
 
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