- Banned
- #46
Guess you have a hard time comprehending the CBA language, and ATL is an old HP station, not a US one as US closed it before the merger.
Learn to read and understand:
Tulsa will be gone by February 2014
- Thread starter brownmech
- Start date
Learn to read and understand:
Not really true, both of those companies went BK so both are operating under post BK contracts, so is US.
The downside that your posts ignore is that we went into BK with a deal where we had less vacation, fewer Holidays, less sick time more out of pocket costs for medical and lower wages than their post BK deals and we came out even worse. Sure we have a higher volume of work but isn't Walmart the largest employer in the US? Isn't the labor movement critical of WALMART's low wages and dismissive of the fact that they employ more workers than any other employer because of both their low wages and poor benefits? Isn't it true that Unionized TWU members will be required to work on July 4 and only receive 4 hours extra pay while non union workers at AA will receive 8 hours extra pay for working the Holiday?
So if we factor in that we get a weeks less vacation, 5 less holidays, and only half pay for the Holidays they recognize then we basically work an extra 100 hours per year for free compared to our Teamster peers, our IAM peers and our Non-union peers. If you have workers working for free why wouldn't you agree keep more than anyone else? WALMART and AA are more alike than you want to admit. AA may be employing 8000 mechanics but they are getting the equivalent of over 9000 mechanics hours while paying the lowest wage to 8000.
Little was right when he said the TWU must evolve or it will dissolve. For at least the last ten years their anointed appointed stooges have made sure that AA management gets whatever they want, even if they later realize sometimes what they want is not in their best interests (such as eliminating the two year experience requirement to work the line). With their PLI and JLT deals AA was able to reduce outsourcing while at the same time eliminating more heads than the fleet reduction helped eliminate, over 4000 mechanics jobs. AA had reduced the fleet by 30% but headcount by 35% as far back as 2009. Its even more than that now. They have brought us to the lowest point ever in this industry and still try and rationalize it by adopting the Walmart approach to wages and benefits and try to spin it into a Union philosophy where volume is better than quality but then still expect members to be willing to pay for quality. Now they face threats from many angles, a possible IBT vote, a possible AMFA write in, a possible IBT victory at US which would dissolve their proposed alliance in Maint with the IAM and a possible write in vote for AMFA in any of the above. It seems that more than likely there will be a vote and judging the response of the 591 election where even after mailing out 4300 pro TeAAm Videtich flyers the team netted only 200 votes that there will be very little support for keeping the same ATD teAAm that brought us to the bottom of the industry in place. Littles promise of a change in the way the TWU does things has not been kept, from hiring the daughter of an International officer into a six figure staff job at the International to recently appointing yet another democratically ousted President, Sidney Jimenez, to a newly created International position to his proposed merger with the CWA it seems that Littles intentions are not to evolve, but rather dissolve. Oh well, at least there is a Convention in September. Who knows, maybe the TWU will get what its needed for a long time-A Leader. The next question is will M&R even be there?
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #48
good points by several people here but everyone needs to remember that the largest airlines in the US are publicly owned which means that everyday people own them. "welfare" for a public corporation helps individuals more than fat cats, as much as some want to believe otherwise. Most stock in the US is held by pension funds and investment vehicles for average middle-class Americans.
There is nothing that stops a corporation or a private corporation from paying its executives well above average salaries and that is where the disconnect comes with the average American worker.
If TUL ever gets to the point of providing large subsidies to AA to keep the maintenance base open, it will be because the risk to the OK economy will be far larger than the cost to provide those incentives.
It is almost certain that Parker and co. will ask for incentives from OK and TUL; the question is whether the price is more than those governments are willing to pay.
The primary objective over the next two years should be for labor to demonstrate their value to the TUL and OK economy - and it is very substantial.
Very little stock in airlines or any other company are owned by everyday people. Most stocks are in funds. The lie that ordinary folk own the stock is a right wing myth used to justify outrageous executive compensation and to try and claim the process is democratic. So if most stock is in funds then most stock is owned by other corporations who own the right to vote that goes with the stock, while those of us who are pretty much confined by our contributory pension plans are given a limited choice of "funds" to invest in. We are given a take it or leave it option. We do not get to actively determine what stocks are part of the fund nor so we get to vote with the shares that are part of the fund. So with nearly all of our savings tied up into funds controlled by corporate executives we have a situation where our wealth is being used by corporate executives to vote in raises and perks for other corporate executives who do the same for them.
Tulsa may be sold on the need to provide corporate welfare only to learn like Kansas City, Indianapolis and many other cities across the nation that promises from airlines are more often made than kept. If AA should eventually leave Tulsa it may provide Spirit more space to build the 737s that are replacing the MD-80s that AA is dumping. So rather than give AA millions in subsidies only to see total employment decline anyway they may be better off encouraging Spirit or some other company that is likely to expand rather than shrink to move into space thats vacated by AA. They can claim that they have the facilities and an experienced skilled workforce. Didn't Kansas City eventually find someone to move into the old TWA space after being screwed by AA?
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #50
Bob,
Half of American families who make between 40-60% of the median income in America own stock. It is certainly true that wealthier Americans have disproportionately larger holdings but stock market ownership is very much broad based across American society.
see table 1211 from Census Bureau data.
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s1211.pdf
Thus, the idea that help to corporations goes just to the rich is not accurate.
There is no evidence that ownership for the publicly trade airlines is any different for the rest of American business or industry.
IN fact, the largest airlines are almost entirely held by institutional investors and mutual funds.
Here are several of the key US airlines.
ALK
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=ALK+Major+Holders
JBLU
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=jblu&ql=1
DAL
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=dal&ql=1
UAL
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=ual&ql=1
LUV
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=LUV&ql=1
LCC
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=LCC&ql=1
You might note that DAL and LUV are both around 82-83% institutional compared to close to or over 100% for other airlines.
These are just for stocks....
Consider all that when municipalities provide incentives to companies for economic development, an even larger percentage of the aid goes to the working people in the community because those are the jobs that are being protected. There are some economic incentives that are used to retain headquarters and other high paying jobs but the vast majority of incentives are to retain good middle-class jobs.
I would just as soon not see TUL come to a point where its survival is dependent on economic aid but if it happens, it will be because it makes sense for TUL and OK and because it will help far more "common people" than fat cats.
Half of American families who make between 40-60% of the median income in America own stock. It is certainly true that wealthier Americans have disproportionately larger holdings but stock market ownership is very much broad based across American society.
see table 1211 from Census Bureau data.
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s1211.pdf
Thus, the idea that help to corporations goes just to the rich is not accurate.
There is no evidence that ownership for the publicly trade airlines is any different for the rest of American business or industry.
IN fact, the largest airlines are almost entirely held by institutional investors and mutual funds.
Here are several of the key US airlines.
ALK
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=ALK+Major+Holders
JBLU
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=jblu&ql=1
DAL
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=dal&ql=1
UAL
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=ual&ql=1
LUV
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=LUV&ql=1
LCC
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=LCC&ql=1
You might note that DAL and LUV are both around 82-83% institutional compared to close to or over 100% for other airlines.
These are just for stocks....
Consider all that when municipalities provide incentives to companies for economic development, an even larger percentage of the aid goes to the working people in the community because those are the jobs that are being protected. There are some economic incentives that are used to retain headquarters and other high paying jobs but the vast majority of incentives are to retain good middle-class jobs.
I would just as soon not see TUL come to a point where its survival is dependent on economic aid but if it happens, it will be because it makes sense for TUL and OK and because it will help far more "common people" than fat cats.
La Li Lu Le Lo
Veteran
- May 29, 2010
- 7,414
- 2,649
This person gets it.
Basically what you are saying is everything I said is right. Institutional ownership means that Funds banks etc own the stock and vote with the shares they own. Common people really have no say despite the way you try and spin it. Common folks are pretty much confined due to their limited surpluss capital to 401K plans where ownership of individual stocks and the voting rights that come with that ownership is limited, instead we are herded into Funds controlled by "Institutions".
Your claim that corporate welfare may help "far more" working people than fat cats may be half true but the fact is it helps the few fat cats "far more" than it will help common folks.
TRAVIS
Veteran
I guess we can count ATL as another station the IAM lost under it's watch!!! GOOD THING THE IBT HAD ATL AT AWA OR WE WOULD NOT HAVE THAT STATION NOW.
TRAVIS
Veteran
Tulsa has more members than PIT so who do you think the IAM will support in the scope of a new CBA as 700 pointed out the scope is still open? (common sense).
I agree with you, I'm actually in favor of no union. I don't see any union protecting the airline work force, because of the railroad labor act and bankruptcy laws has weakened any unions power at the airlines, and with the fact that AA is so big now, the NMB will never allow a strike.
I see no reason to pay a union for the right to work at AA.
- Banned
- #56
Gee what about CMH under the IBT's watch?
Why did HP farmout everything above a C-check?
How come the ibt failed to bring more work back in-house at HP?
Why does all the ibt represented mechanic CBAs have the highest outsourcing?
UPS all heavy outsourced, majority of the UA and CO fleet all outsourced.
Why did HP farmout everything above a C-check?
How come the ibt failed to bring more work back in-house at HP?
Why does all the ibt represented mechanic CBAs have the highest outsourcing?
UPS all heavy outsourced, majority of the UA and CO fleet all outsourced.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #57
no we are not saying the same thing.
The stock that in the investment funds are owned by millions of Americans. Anyone that participates in an investment fund regularly receives materials that they can use to vote on actions of the fund. While the vast majority of us throw that material out or ignore it (even easier since the process is increasingly being done over the internet), everyday people DO have a say, even if they choose not to exercise it. Democracy is still democracy whether 80% or 20% of the people show up on election day.
Why would you think that the fat cats would benefit more than the every day people if new AA received incentives to keep TUL open?
The fat cats benefit by finding the lowest cost solution and if incentives are required, TUL is not likely the lowest cost solution. The incentives only serve to reduce the cost difference between TUL and another option to a level that new AA would consider acceptable - and then there is the political element.
Prior to the RLA strikes were prohibited, but Unions struck anyway. Its your duty as a Patriot to break laws that are unjust. The same tactics that won fair wages and benefits are needed to keep or regain what those who came before us fought for. Once we believe otherwise all is lost. The NMB was formed as a result of the fact that laws, injunctions etc could not stop workers from striking. If the government though the courts and NMB subvert laws that were put in place to acheive a level playing field then we through our unions must challenge them both. when courts say that labor is afforded second class rights and are not entitled to the rights of all other stakeholders then there is no law because the law must apply equally to all. So when a Judge says that Exxon or BP must provide fuel at a price that AA says they can pay then I will agree that they can do the same to us, but they dont. To say that an airline, and only an airline can abrogate a labor contract, impose new rates of pay and that unions can not strike only shows what an absolute fraud our court system has become.
The managers of the fund get to select what stocks are in the fund and they get to vote with the shares purchased with our money. We have very little real say. Don't like how they manage it and we can leave, that doesn't make it Democratic.
The fat cats benefit by not paying their fare share and having their business subsidized by the taxpayer.
