Tulsa To Get Insourced 737 Wheel Maintenance

[High Speed Steel]

HSS, You call working for $10.00-$15.00/hr with No benefits a job with a future? What type of weed are you smoking? :wacko:

[post="249078"][/post]​

Princess, I am going to assume due to your past posts that you are referring to OSM jobs. If you would just read your TWU/AA agreement you might be able to educate yourself a little on just how many of those positions can be filled. There is a limit you know! You try to make it sound that no Mechanic positions will be created with future work coming in house. Besides don't the OSM's recieve the same benifits that us senior mechanics recieve. Really Princess, What type of weed are "YOU" smoking :blink:

----------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

 

[goingboeing]

Princess, I am going to assume due to your past posts that you are referring to OSM jobs. If you would just read your TWU/AA agreement you might be able to educate yourself a little on just how many of those positions can be filled. There is a limit you know! You try to make it sound that no Mechanic positions will be created with future work coming in house. Besides don't the OSM's recieve the same benifits that us senior mechanics recieve. Really Princess, What type of weed are "YOU" smoking :blink:

----------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

[post="249083"][/post]​

I don't know about you HSS, but I consider A&P License premium a benefit and OSM's do not get payed for their licenses.

 

[High Speed Steel]

I don't know about you HSS, but I consider A&P License premium a benefit and OSM's do not get payed for their licenses.

[post="249084"][/post]​

Boeing,

I will try to elaborate on your point. I do admire those who seek further education and secure the A&P Licenses. But it is "advancement opportunities", that is the benefit. The benefit lies within the TWU/AA agreement in an attatched letter to Article #11, for those who secure the Airframe and Powerplant licenses. The premium is just that a premium, and it is recognized as part of the "regular hourly rate" for AMT's under Article #2 (j). And inturn is part of an A&P mechanics rate of pay per Article #4.

--------------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

HSS, your wonderful TWU sellout contract also said the SRP/OSM shops would be filled by "attrition". We all know what happened back in 1995. Mechanics were "attritioned" immediately to the hangar floor! HSS,I work with your type of TWU stooges everyday. They say they would gladly take another 25% paycut just to save their job. Well HSS 17% here,then 25% there and pretty soon we will be at or below the poverty level. The mechanics in places like JFK,LGA,SFO,ORD,LAX,SAN,BOS,IAD are already there! :cold: :cold:

 

[AMFAMAN]

Boeing,

I will try to elaborate on your point. I do admire those who seek further education and secure the A&P Licenses. But it is "advancement opportunities", that is the benefit. The benefit lies within the TWU/AA agreement in an attatched letter to Article #11, for those who secure the Airframe and Powerplant licenses. The premium is just that a premium, and it is recognized as part of the "regular hourly rate" for AMT's under Article #2 (j). And inturn is part of an A&P mechanics rate of pay per Article #4.

--------------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

[post="249100"][/post]​

So you're okay with the fact that previous AMT(licensed or not) were replaced by SRP(licensed or not but not paid for them) under the contract selling promise that "if at any time you are bumped back to a (now) OSM shop, you will retain your rate of pay, including license premiums."

Are the licensed OSM's not liable under their license for their work? Why are they called AMT/OSM 2 license if the compAAny is not paying for their licenses? Why hasn't the twu stopped the company from using these OSM's licenses? Does the twu have a clue?

 

[767 mechanic]

Hey 767....... Moron here, Can I play?????

Let's see, You question the truth to my assesment of amfa's failures so I may try to enlighten you.

To date, amfa has over 50% of their members on the street. Over 47.1% of those members are from one Airline alone. The TWU on the other hand is around 16%. There have been facilities closed and even some have met the wrath of a "Buldozer"!!! With no chance of the amfa members who are on the street to ever return to their former jobs.

The TWU on the other hand are in the process of making strides to ensure that their members have a future. It has been noted that AA is the only Airline to maintain full Overhaul capability's and the TWU has been an assistant in this venture to ensure its success.

If you cannot absorb common sense, and continue to support the amfa dream, it may be wise of you to check your "Occupational Seniority Date" 😉

-----------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

[post="249074"][/post]​

Yes I see that we have full overhaul capabilities,but for how long and at what price do we have to pay for that capability. Let me guess KC will be all,but closed in July. We are paying mechanics osm wages that are less than third party mechanic pay. With wages like this why should I pay dues to the totally worthless union when I could save that money and go to work for Tramco. Oh and lets not forget how people like you and the totally worthless union degrade my profession,but you don't care about my profession do you. That is because you are a machinist right? There is nothing wrong with being a machinist, just stop trying to degrade my profession with the twu,s smoke and mirror games.

 

[Decision 2004]

767 Mechanic,

The TWU motto is "I've got mine brother", screw everyone else.

Until the water touches their own crotch, don't look for any signs of sympathy or concern.

Then when the lightning strikes their own paycheck, they will scream we should have done something! Or better yet, they wil take a bus ride to the Capital and whimper on the steps.

 

[Bob Owens]

High Speed Steel,Feb 19 2005, 06:23 PM]
Moron here,

Well at least he got that right.

To date, amfa has over 50% of their members on the street. Over 47.1% of those members are from one Airline alone. The TWU on the other hand is around 16%. There have been facilities closed and even some have met the wrath of a "Buldozer"!!! With no chance of the amfa members who are on the street to ever return to their former jobs.


The mechanics at American Airlines used to have a job that paid up to $37/hr, had 10 paid holidays where if they worked them got 2.5x pay, got doubletime after 4 hrs ot, paid lunch, penalty hour etc. 100% of them no longer have that job and if they dont get rid of the TWU they will never get that job back either.

The TWU on the other hand are in the process of making strides to ensure that their members have NO future. It has been noted that AA is the only Airline to maintain full Overhaul capability's and the TWU has been an assistant in this venture to ensure its success.

The TWUs next goal is to undercut third party labor rates and then Little can make another statement to the press bragging about how TWU members have to work three jobs to sirvive while he gives himself another $20,000/year raise.

If you cannot absorb common sense, and continue to support the amfa dream, it may be wise of you to check your "Occupational Seniority Date" 😉


Spoken like a true union buster. Union buster have always preached that a paycut is better than no job, thats what the TWU says dont they? They always claimed that submission was better than fighting, real unionists always rejected such rhetoric.[/COLOR

 

[767 mechanic]

Decision 2004



I think the water might be getting a little closer than the twu supporters realize. Look at the PJ party that the 514 had with AA. Even Dennis and the idiot Kevin are starting to sell out their local 514 membership (500 million) so that they can fill there pockets.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Hey 767....... Moron here, Can I play?????

Let's see, You question the truth to my assesment of amfa's failures so I may try to enlighten you.

To date, amfa has over 50% of their members on the street. Over 47.1% of those members are from one Airline alone. The TWU on the other hand is around 16%. There have been facilities closed and even some have met the wrath of a "Buldozer"!!! With no chance of the amfa members who are on the street to ever return to their former jobs.

The TWU on the other hand are in the process of making strides to ensure that their members  have a future. It has been noted that AA is the only Airline to maintain full Overhaul capability's and the TWU has been an assistant in this venture to ensure its success.

If you cannot absorb common sense, and continue to support the amfa dream, it may be wise of you to check your "Occupational Seniority Date" 😉

-----------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

[post="249074"][/post]​

hss, this is the producer of the game show you are on. I'm sorry, but you have lost track this is a game show NOT a comedy.

Were any of these so called 50% AMFA members by any chance laid off because of the PREVIOUS iam negotiated contract that allowed INDY overhaul AMTs at UAL to be placed on ANP (Authorized No Pay) status while a contract "vote" was being taken to eliminate overhaul at UAL? And while on ANP these AMTs could NOT VOTE on the contract! Nice bending of the truth hss. AMFA inherited a concessionary contract from your industrial sister union, the iam.

" The TWU on the other hand are in the process of making strides to ensure that their members have a future. It has been noted that AA is the only Airline to maintain full Overhaul capability's and the TWU has been an assistant in this venture to ensure its success."

The above quote must have been the funniest thing you have written. If you mean "strides" as prohibiting a fair union representational election, lieing to the members about full revotes removing officers because they fight FOR their members instead of AGAINST them and taking concessions so people will not be laid off ONLY TO HAVE PEOPLE LAID OFF and AMTs do AMT work but not get paid for their A&P licenses and create an undemocratic election process for international officers and create pro company videos with small minded company stools then "strides" is the wrong word. Oh, I almost forgot, "strides" does not include parading a coffin up and down a Tulsa street either. 😉

By the way coward, oops, I mean hss, if you are so proud of the twu why must you post from behind an alias?

And of all the laid off twu members how many are recalled back with full pay and benefits? NONE! When do twu members get snap backed to full pay and benefits? NEVER! Because the twu gave away the farm. Hey, that's the twu way!

The twu... an organization supported by those who fear being identified by their real names. A true cowardly union! 😛h34r:

 

[FWAAA]

FM, you get what you pay for. At V1, rotation, do you want the cheapest labor overhauling your engines? And at landing do you want the same cheapest labor die-penetrating, zyglow, etc., the rim and tie bolts and nuts? You are not ignorant. You are just like the public that doesn't know what is involved in maintaining a silver bullet that goes about 500 miles an hour. Fortunately those of us who do this work know what is needed to sustain an airworthy aircraft.

As for FWAA's comment about this brake work coming back in-house as being seen as bad news by some do not misperceive a lack of jumping up and down while trying to bow at the altar of the twu inept leadership for this work. Yes, I am glad work is coming back in-house but I have not forgotten that this same work was let go in the first place. The twu will try and use this as a victory as to their leadership skills. Trust me, the twu has no leadership skills in the international, and certainly not in Tulsa's local president. As another poster asks, how much engine work is being returned? And, does any returned work include recalling A&Ps or just A&Ps who don't get paid for their A&P? 😉

[post="248325"][/post]​

Of course, I didn't expect uncontrolled celebration at this announcement. This news does not make up for the thousands of furloughs. Or the massive concessions.

As to your first paragraph, there is little you or your union (whichever one represents you) can do to prevent the cheapest labor from doing the job. As many have posted, the TWU has delivered concessionary contracts since 1983.

Yet AA's AMTs accept it by coming to work every day and fixing the airplanes like professionals.

But they keep doing it for less and less money. Bob Owens mentions that experienced AMTs are quitting, and those resignations come as no surprise, given 22 years of substandard compensation (according to, among other things, his legendary CPI graph).

You don't have to know how to fix an airplane to desire that it be fixed competently. Nor do you have to be an American citizen to fix airplanes competently. Nor do airplanes have to be fixed on US soil by unionized AMTs in order to be fixed correctly. QF, SQ, BA, LH and plenty of other airlines all around the world employ lots of non-USA AMTs to fix their airplanes, and their airplanes aren't falling out of the sky. Should their pax be worried that non-Americans work on their airplanes??

How much money a mechanic makes really has nothing to do with whether the mechanic is competent. Unfortunately, the price of nearly everything has a lot to do with the supply and demand for whatever we are pricing, including wages. Unions might be able to assist their members in extracting some economic rent for a while, but nothing is permanent. Many posters here repeatedly claim that the TWU has even failed at that mission for 22 years or so.

If it has been so bad for the last 22 years, ya just gotta wonder why so many keep showing up for work? Why haven't they all quit? There must be something redeeming about working for AA (even if nobody admits it). If it sucked as much as everyone says, then AA would be placing "help-wanted" ads for AMTs in major newsapapers.

Whether a mechanic is competent has nothing to do with the color of one's skin or the language they speak, or their country of residence. Men (and women, I suppose - although there aren't as many women) all around the world can learn how to fix airplanes. Same, of course, with pilots and FAs and ground personnel. Those foreign airlines employ lots of foreigners. Which makes sense, given that the USA contains less than 5% of the world's population. There just aren't enough Americans to do all the important jobs for the whole world.

So it's a good thing that non-Americans can be trained to do some of those important jobs. Even like fixing airplanes.

 

[Bob Owens]

FWAAA,Feb 22 2005, 05:47 PM]


You don't have to know how to fix an airplane to desire that it be fixed competently. Nor do you have to be an American citizen to fix airplanes competently. Nor do airplanes have to be fixed on US soil by unionized AMTs in order to be fixed correctly. QF, SQ, BA, LH and plenty of other airlines all around the world employ lots of non-USA AMTs to fix their airplanes, and their airplanes aren't falling out of the sky.

Well the fact is that the US has one of the best safety records and as you go to places where the wages are lower and non-union you see an increase in air disasters. Proportionately the US does more flying than any other country.

Should their pax be worried that non-Americans work on their airplanes??

Yes. Especially non-union mechanics who are employees at will. They are more easily pressured into taking risky shortcuts,falsifying information and overlooking needed repairs.

How much money a mechanic makes really has nothing to do with whether the mechanic is competent.

So the same would apply to executives too right? Or any other worker right?

Unfortunately, the price of nearly everything has a lot to do with the supply and demand for whatever we are pricing, including wages.

Thats oversimplifying it.

Unions might be able to assist their members in extracting some economic rent for a while, but nothing is permanent. Many posters here repeatedly claim that the TWU has even failed at that mission for 22 years or so.

If it has been so bad for the last 22 years, ya just gotta wonder why so many keep showing up for work? Why haven't they all quit? There must be something redeeming about working for AA (even if nobody admits it). If it sucked as much as everyone says, then AA would be placing "help-wanted" ads for AMTs in major newsapapers.

Well as you can see from my "legendary graph" the situation has continually deteriorated and now we are starting to see more and more people with experience at top pay simply walking away from the profession. If things are bad enough for them to walk away from a job where they have so much time invested then it stands to reason that even those who are still there are not about to go above and beyond either. Just because they remain does not mean that their attitude or performance has not been affected, there are a lot of variables as to why they remain.

Whether a mechanic is competent has nothing to do with the color of one's skin or the language they speak, or their country of residence. Men (and women, I suppose - although there aren't as many women) all around the world can learn how to fix airplanes.

Sure, and they can learn whatever it is you do too. But there is a truism that you get what you pay for. Now explain why AA pays their mechanics in England around $20k more than they pay those in America?


So it's a good thing that non-Americans can be trained to do some of those important jobs. Even like fixing airplanes.

Or even jobs like whatever it is you do!

 

[mweiss]

Within a localized market, the pay and the quality of work should be roughly commensurate. However, when you start looking more globally, that correlation begins to break down.

Purchasing power is the important factor in examining wages on a global scale. Someone in South America can earn less than the United States counterpart, and still be way ahead in the purchasing power department. As the cost of transportation declines, the pressure to move work to lower-wage countries increases.

This is why it's absurd to suggest that quality work requires someone who natively speaks the US dialect of English.

 

[FWAAA]

But there is a truism that you get what you pay for. Now explain why AA pays their mechanics in England around $20k more than they pay those in America?

[post="249884"][/post]​

As someone else pointed out in a different thread, perhaps it's because AA agreed to pay them a certain number of British Pounds, and those pounds have increased in value relative to the US Dollar as the dollar's value has declined? If the Pound should plunge relative to the Dollar, then that those AMTs will be paid much less than you.

Or maybe the British AMTs are just better negotiators than your group? 😛

So Americans are the best at fixing airplanes - they just suck at negotiating their own wages relative to the Brits. Americans do everything better. Except take care of themselves. 😀

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Of course, I didn't expect uncontrolled celebration at this announcement. This news does not make up for the thousands of furloughs. Or the massive concessions.

As to your first paragraph, there is little you or your union (whichever one represents you) can do to prevent the cheapest labor from doing the job. As many have posted, the TWU has delivered concessionary contracts since 1983.

Yet AA's AMTs accept it by coming to work every day and fixing the airplanes like professionals.

But they keep doing it for less and less money. Bob Owens mentions that experienced AMTs are quitting, and those resignations come as no surprise, given 22 years of substandard compensation (according to, among other things, his legendary CPI graph).

You don't have to know how to fix an airplane to desire that it be fixed competently. Nor do you have to be an American citizen to fix airplanes competently. Nor do airplanes have to be fixed on US soil by unionized AMTs in order to be fixed correctly. QF, SQ, BA, LH and plenty of other airlines all around the world employ lots of non-USA AMTs to fix their airplanes, and their airplanes aren't falling out of the sky. Should their pax be worried that non-Americans work on their airplanes??

How much money a mechanic makes really has nothing to do with whether the mechanic is competent. Unfortunately, the price of nearly everything has a lot to do with the supply and demand for whatever we are pricing, including wages. Unions might be able to assist their members in extracting some economic rent for a while, but nothing is permanent. Many posters here repeatedly claim that the TWU has even failed at that mission for 22 years or so.

If it has been so bad for the last 22 years, ya just gotta wonder why so many keep showing up for work? Why haven't they all quit? There must be something redeeming about working for AA (even if nobody admits it). If it sucked as much as everyone says, then AA would be placing "help-wanted" ads for AMTs in major newsapapers.

Whether a mechanic is competent has nothing to do with the color of one's skin or the language they speak, or their country of residence. Men (and women, I suppose - although there aren't as many women) all around the world can learn how to fix airplanes. Same, of course, with pilots and FAs and ground personnel. Those foreign airlines employ lots of foreigners. Which makes sense, given that the USA contains less than 5% of the world's population. There just aren't enough Americans to do all the important jobs for the whole world.

So it's a good thing that non-Americans can be trained to do some of those important jobs. Even like fixing airplanes.

[post="249869"][/post]​

fwaa, I believe your statement about unions is slightly off. A union is only as good as their union's leadership. In the twu international there are NO leaders. Only individuals who were never elected into their international positions by the full membership they say they represent. Back when Lorenzo attempted to screw his work force the iam leadership went toe to toe with Lorenzo and they did what was needed and the membership followed. Why didn't the iam do what was necessary to prevent work form going overseas at NWA & UAL? Because there is no leadership in today's industrial unions in the airlines.

Why do people keep coming to work if the work sucks? Perhaps because it is not that the work sucks but because it is work worth fighting for. Perhaps people are not weakminded clones willing to be stepped on. Or simply it is because people want to fight for a profession they spent time and money to enter and believe in their beliefs.

" You don't have to know how to fix an airplane to desire that it be fixed competently."

You are correct in the above quote. My neighbor doesn't fix aircraft but he desires the person doing that work to know what he is doing. And pay does directly reflect a person's ability/desire to do his/her job. (Yes, there are always people in every profession that are the exception to this rule.) Does a person have his/her car repaired by someone who is standing outside a HomeDepot? How about having your eyes done with lazer surgery? My point is that you get what you pay for.

No one person ever implied that being a foreigner, regardless of their skin color, makes that person anyless competent. What makes a person competent is their training and skill level. By sending work overseas to facilities that do not have the same standards is the problem. Paying someone who is willing to work because they can pay that person dirt cheap will not increase that person's desire to become more competent.

"There just aren't enough Americans to do all the important jobs for the whole world."

No one ever suggested this. However, there are enough Americans to repair sophisticated aircraft in America. 😉