Tulsa AMT movement.

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

funny that the first part of his post didn't get quoted.

There is nothing funny about it.
 
I posted the part that was relevant to the point I was trying to make.
 
It is not like the original text was not easily accessible to everyone.
 
I don't think I like what you are implying.
 
Quoting parts of a post has been a very common practice on this forum for a long time.

 

[topDawg]

The current CF6 test cell could be modified but it would be at its rated limits physically, after replacing the doors,
jet-breaker, possibly the intake for the correct flow you would still have an outdated cell. Its an excellent CFM & CF6-80 (767-200)
cell but a bit cumbersome for the CF6-C2 & CF6-B6 (A300/767-300).  In 2016 the CFM56-7 schedule will keep the current cell
pretty busy, a new cell may be the only way to go.

So same issue we have. They have pretty much milked all they can get out of the existing cells in Atlanta. 70-72K is about as high as they can really go, and its do to intake flow. 
 

the other side of the coin for Tulsa and OK is can AA really pull everything down if taxpayers don't pay for upgrades that should be paid for by AA.

and the answer is that AA couldn't simply walk away from TUL if there is no taxpayer money that is given to AA. TUL is too big of a facility for AA and in the airline maintenance world in order for AA just to walk away from it. There isn't enough spare capacity in the world to handle the amount of work that AA does there.

and dawg's point on the DL forums that labor costs are rising around the world is absolutely true. The benefit of outsourcing will diminish.

Parker might try and plan one PMAA or PMUS maintenance facility against another but again there isn't enough capacity to try to get rid of it all.

and given the history of airlines walking away from taxpayer funded facilities, including at PIT which was specifically as part of US' BK restructuring and merger preparations, TUL and OK are not going to pour hundreds of millions of dollars into AA's TUL facilities unless they can see that they get something out of it.

AA is spsnding and will spend billions of dollars as part of the merger and that will have to come from corporate money. Taxpayers are not willing to subsidize profitable companies just because the company wants to save money.

there is a big difference between saving jobs in BK and expecting taxpayers to pay for upgrades to facilities that are part of what every company must do and which is doing on its own including as part of the normal merger process.

eh I have a feeling AA could find a government in DFW, CLT and/or PIT that would gladly dump money into a Tulsa replacement.  
I don't think that will happen though. Tulsa will do the upgrades IMO. 
 

Translation: 

 
As if DL never took a penny of taxpayer money
.

For the TOC I will say that, for the most part, Ma D pays for everything. However plenty of cases of Delta and every other airline taking tax money. 
 

Gee just like DL is doing trying not to pay tax on Jet Fuel purchased at ATL.

not sure how the two are remotely comparable.... 
 

Does the fact that the City of Tulsa owns the maintenance base and most of the equipment within matter in the debate amongst you scholars here?
 
AA doesn't own what they are requesting to be upgraded.....the city owns it.

I wouldn't think that matters. Delta doesn't own most of the builds and hangars they operate out of but still put CapEx into them. (not to say the respective cities don't also do the same) 
 
Its fairly normal for cities to own, build these bases with long term leases for the carrier. Once an upgrade comes needed the city and the airline work out who pays what. 
 
Of course I am just talking generals. Hard to say for sure without seeing the lease contract between AA and Tulsa. 
 

World Fraudster:
 
Delta asks Minn. for $5.9M to renovate Chisholm call center
 
http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/23884274/delta-asks-minnesota-for-59m-to-renovate-chisholm-call-center
 
If you are making billions, why do they need a handout?

6M compared to the like 100M-200M maybe even 300M AA is asking for is a completely different ball game. 
 

Sort of.
 
That did cross my mind as well.
 
The fact that the city is asking the taxpayers to "OK" it suggest that the city is not required by contract to provide those "upgrades".

Its unlikely the City would "have" to pay for those upgrades. A good bit of Delta offices and possibly even the TOC in Atlanta are owned by the City of Atlanta, but Delta funds most of the upgrade. 
 
They did recently come in and repaint the hangars on the inside and I think the City paid for that.  
 

funny that the first part of his post didn't get quoted.


given the reported age of the AA workforce at TUL, AA has to make some decisions regarding TUL and city officials know that.

the notion that TUL couldn't be operated by someone else or that AA could simply outsource some of the work which the engine test facility is intended to serve are very much options.

The reason why DL is willing to foot the bill for its own comparable facilities in ATL is because DL has a massive MRO operation compared to other US airlines and according to dawg, DL appears to have won the MRO coverage which RR is not willing to extend for new models at TAESL.

the economics work very differently for an MRO vs. an airline only operation.

combine the age of AA's work force with the fact that appears to be pulling back from the engine MRO business it currently does at TAESL and it is no wonder that AA is asking for money but also why the city and state will ask why they should support AA, esp. since a lot of those workers in TUL might be gone in a few years anyway.

and, no, politicians won't do anything to stay elected esp. if you are talking about the kind of money here and for state and local governments. Those are federal government sized amounts of subsidies. It is a huge amount of money for TUL and OK.

politicians aren't willing to get voted out by doing something against the will of the people.

since no one has been willing to say it, earlier aid requests for AA HAVE BEEN DENIED BEFORE.

AA didn't leave town.

That has very little to do with AA and more to do with simple timing. 
As i said before, had AA and US merged a little bit earlier or US didn't bring over A350 orders that go back to the first A350(and come with an early power by the hour deal with Rollers) it is very possible TEASL would be getting a TXWB line. 
If AA went T1000 on the 787 its likely TEASL would have gotten a line for that. 
 
What is happening at TEASL has more to do with AA moving away from Rollers and closer to more GE engines. (and with the hangar at AFW gone, it makes little sense for having an engine shop there just to ship engine to Tulsa, when you can build a new shop in Tulsa and cut those costs.) 

 

[WorldTraveler]

while I agree with you about the timing part, it also says that TAESL existed only to produce lower costs for AA on the engines that AA currently operated and AA didn't see economic benefit in what TAESL did enough to extend beyond what was currently operating.

given that RR essentially subsidized a large part of AA's large jet engine capabilities, AA is now forced to get the city of TUL to do the same now or AA is even worse off than they were before.

the economics of spending money to operate a large engine repair operation probably cannot be justified if it serves just to maintain AA engines.

and the taxpayers of TUL are even more likely to object to any scheme that has them funding a facility that AA can use to seek outside business.

thus, AA is forced either to consider the economics of building their own large jet engine repair facilities at TUL with their own money for their own use (and the economics probably do not favor doing so) because the chances that TUL will reject a plan again are high vs. the economics of just outright outsourcing the work.

and the point about supply chain economics is even more of a hindrance to large engine MRO work at TUL than even TAESL was.

 

[topDawg]

while I agree with you about the timing part, it also says that TAESL existed only to produce lower costs for AA on the engines that AA currently operated and AA didn't see economic benefit in what TAESL did enough to extend beyond what was currently operating.

Again, this is not something that is up to AA. Rollers is the one who picks what MROs do what. At best AA could do its own TXWBs in house, but it isn't that many engines. (not nearly enough volume)
 

given that RR essentially subsidized a large part of AA's large jet engine capabilities, AA is now forced to get the city of TUL to do the same now or AA is even worse off than they were before.

It helps with a scale, but at the end of the day AA has more than enough T800s and RB211s to do them in house. RR going with AA for the RB211 and T800 was only logical, again the volume is there on the AA side so now all they have to do is add gravy work.
 

the economics of spending money to operate a large engine repair operation probably cannot be justified if it serves just to maintain AA engines.

AA will end up with over 100 GEnX engines, that is more than enough to do the work in-house. If they build a new test cell it won't be for "just" those engines.
Even in the new cell at Delta you will see everything from CF34s to TXWBs ran in it.
 

and the taxpayers of TUL are even more likely to object to any scheme that has them funding a facility that AA can use to seek outside business.

If Atlanta can sell its tax payers on that stupid stadium, Tulsa wont have an issue selling upgrades to it largest employer.
 

thus, AA is forced either to consider the economics of building their own large jet engine repair facilities at TUL with their own money for their own use (and the economics probably do not favor doing so) because the chances that TUL will reject a plan again are high vs. the economics of just outright outsourcing the work.

Again, you are making some big assumptions.
you are assuming GE has no interest in allowing a MRO for a marketplace that will have 400 engines in the US alone. You are also assuming Tulsa is going to tell AA to piss off. Third you are assuming that, even if that is the case, AA isn't willing to spend the money on it own.

 

and the point about supply chain economics is even more of a hindrance to large engine MRO work at TUL than even TAESL was.

How do you figure that? It makes much more sense to have the engines done at the MX base than having to transport them to the base. Key reason why Delta isn't interested in even taking RFPs from anywhere that isn't Atlanta.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and when your MRO is in a state that has no scheduled int'l service on any airline, it means trucking from someplace on top of a flight from an airport such as DFW that is already dominated by AA.


I'd love to tell you that the argument about stadiums vs. airlines made economic sense but it doesn't.

Tell me how the Braves managed to use their once state of the art stadium for just 20 years after it was built and then walk away and it will be demolished.... only to have another county kick in huge benefits for the Braves 20 miles up the road.

AA currently HAS enough Rolls engines to do them in house but what about the future? I have no problem seeing how TAESL got created and AA got the benefit it did but rather what the next step is esp. by your own word DL has the contract for the next generation RR engines.

and your argument about GE engines is just as applicable to today as tomorrow.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Interesting that TULE is the largest maint. facility in North America but somehow WT says not only is Delta (who farms out all kinds of maint.) comparative but it is superior.  I did some work (in Tulsa) for the superior Delta airlines that they couldn't handle in Atlanta. Then their crack mechanics were calling me wanting to know how we did what they couldn't. I referred them to the tech department who is about as stupid as they are. The TWU also let them overhaul some 727s back in the day and then we had to work on them for two weeks apiece to make them flyable for the paying passengers when the ace mechanics at Delta were done with them.  WT you don't know dick about maintenance so quit trying to act like you do.  I swear Delta should be paying you to sing their friken company song.  You just don't know when to shut up about anything.  We are AMTs and licensed by the FAA and we know what we are talking about.  Delta is a glorified scab airline and their maintenance is nowhere near AAs and never has been.  Go haunt someone else's blog and quit pretending to know anything about maintenance.  My cousin is a retired gate agent for Delta and even he agrees they are scabs.  Now go look at your Weekly Reader and leave the adults alone.  The fact is TULE is superior to any other maintenance base in the U.S. and that is known throughout the industry.  Even in Atlanta.  Now go away.

 

[dfw gen]

Interesting that TULE is the largest maint. facility in North America but somehow WT says not only is Delta (who farms out all kinds of maint.) comparative but it is superior.  I did some work (in Tulsa) for the superior Delta airlines that they couldn't handle in Atlanta. Then their crack mechanics were calling me wanting to know how we did what they couldn't. I referred them to the tech department who is about as stupid as they are. The TWU also let them overhaul some 727s back in the day and then we had to work on them for two weeks apiece to make them flyable for the paying passengers when the ace mechanics at Delta were done with them.  WT you don't know dick about maintenance so quit trying to act like you do.  I swear Delta should be paying you to sing their friken company song.  You just don't know when to shut up about anything.  We are AMTs and licensed by the FAA and we know what we are talking about.  Delta is a glorified scab airline and their maintenance is nowhere near AAs and never has been.  Go haunt someone else's blog and quit pretending to know anything about maintenance.  My cousin is a retired gate agent for Delta and even he agrees they are scabs.  Now go look at your Weekly Reader and leave the adults alone.  The fact is TULE is superior to any other maintenance base in the U.S. and that is known throughout the industry.  Even in Atlanta.  Now go away.

Well said! Couldn't agree more if i wanted to! Especially about the world fool.

 

[topDawg]

Interesting that TULE is the largest maint. facility in North America but somehow WT says not only is Delta (who farms out all kinds of maint.) comparative but it is superior.  I did some work (in Tulsa) for the superior Delta airlines that they couldn't handle in Atlanta. Then their crack mechanics were calling me wanting to know how we did what they couldn't. I referred them to the tech department who is about as stupid as they are. The TWU also let them overhaul some 727s back in the day and then we had to work on them for two weeks apiece to make them flyable for the paying passengers when the ace mechanics at Delta were done with them.  WT you don't know dick about maintenance so quit trying to act like you do.  I swear Delta should be paying you to sing their friken company song.  You just don't know when to shut up about anything.  We are AMTs and licensed by the FAA and we know what we are talking about.  Delta is a glorified scab airline and their maintenance is nowhere near AAs and never has been.  Go haunt someone else's blog and quit pretending to know anything about maintenance.  My cousin is a retired gate agent for Delta and even he agrees they are scabs.  Now go look at your Weekly Reader and leave the adults alone.  The fact is TULE is superior to any other maintenance base in the U.S. and that is known throughout the industry.  Even in Atlanta.  Now go away.

Lol thats cute. 
 
Why don't you talk to us and talk #### about us when your airline become remotely close to Delta in the DOT stats. 
 
Or how about this, let us know when AA goes 150+ days without a maintenance cancellation. 
 
(never mind industry leading TAT, TBOs etc. 150+ customers and ~700M in 3rd party revenue. Number AA and Tulsa aren't even close to touching.) 
 
And I'm glad you and your cousin both have no idea what a scab is. Hope for you that you never find the real meaning of a scab. 

 

[topDawg]

and when your MRO is in a state that has no scheduled int'l service on any airline, it means trucking from someplace on top of a flight from an airport such as DFW that is already dominated by AA.

and Atlanta has the same issue. How do you think GOL gets its engines to ATL? HA gets its 330s to MSP?

and of course AFW doesn't come anywhere close to fixing this issue either.
 

I'd love to tell you that the argument about stadiums vs. airlines made economic sense but it doesn't.

sure it does. If the voters don't want to do it, you just find a way to force it on them. Merica

 

Tell me how the Braves managed to use their once state of the art stadium for just 20 years after it was built and then walk away and it will be demolished.... only to have another county kick in huge benefits for the Braves 20 miles up the road.

The city of Atlanta was really stupid and approved a new stadium that wasn't needed for the Falcons and the Braves wanted a me too and didn't get it.

 

AA currently HAS enough Rolls engines to do them in house but what about the future? I have no problem seeing how TAESL got created and AA got the benefit it did but rather what the next step is esp. by your own word DL has the contract for the next generation RR engines.

that has been my exact point. The RR ship sailed when AA when GE on the 787. As it is they will go from a huge RR airline to less than 100 motors. That is why TAESL is dying.
 

and your argument about GE engines is just as applicable to today as tomorrow.

what? All I have been talking about is AA needs to lock up the GEnX

 

[Vortilon]

Recently Erickson air crane, bought evergreen helicopters and a Brazilian helicopter company that does oil rigs contracts. Erickson bought those companies because they wanted to expand their government contracts through evergreen and oil rig and South American helicopter operations through the Brazilian helicopter company. The point is TIMCO, AAR or some other MRO, can buy a facility and ramp up their operations to accommodate the extra work load from AA.


What makes any of you think that no one can do AA OH a few years from now, it's like when AMFA went on strike at NWA everyone thought they couldn't be replaced. They were replaced and then they got nothing from the settlement.

Politicians will do everything to keep TULE open, including having the tax payers pay for it. Counting on the line mechs to take less for OH scope probably won't happen again. Remember brother, a loaf a bread cost more at a hub.

 
What I see on a daily basis, in my emails - are MROs, airlines - large and small, aviation related companies, and various government agencies all  searching for qualified AMTs.  I don't know about you, but for the perspective AMT entering this career field after having spent two years and around $30K for his or her A&P tickets is gonna want to settle for some shite bag outfit like Timco for $25.00ph.  The smart ones will steer clear of the lower paying jobs.  In some cases they have to settle for stepping stone type jobs (Timco) till a better opportunity presents itself - then its adios amigo.  Over the last several years, AA has been having trouble attracting and retaining AMTs.  Once the perspective AMT sees what the pay difference at AA is compared to UPS, Fed EX, SWA, UAL, or Delta is it doesn't take long for them to decide to make the switch before they have too much time invested at AA. Add to that the sub par benefits at AA compared to those other AMT employers. 
 
What do you suppose those third party maintenance vendors would do to their rates, if AA gave up on overhaul, and the vendors were the only game in town? 
 
BTW, NWA never did recover from that AMFA strike.  You just didn't hear about it in the news.  Then along comes Delta, and the whole thing gets buried in the merger confusion.

 

[topDawg]

 
What I see on a daily basis, in my emails - are MROs, airlines - large and small, aviation related companies, and various government agencies all  searching for qualified AMTs.  I don't know about you, but for the perspective AMT entering this career field after having spent two years and around $30K for his or her A&P tickets is gonna want to settle for some shite bag outfit like Timco for $25.00ph.  The smart ones will steer clear of the lower paying jobs.  In some cases they have to settle for stepping stone type jobs (Timco) till a better opportunity presents itself - then its adios amigo.  Over the last several years, AA has been having trouble attracting and retaining AMTs.  Once the perspective AMT sees what the pay difference at AA is compared to UPS, Fed EX, SWA, UAL, or Delta is it doesn't take long for them to decide to make the switch before they have too much time invested at AA. Add to that the sub par benefits at AA compared to those other AMT employers. 
 
What do you suppose those third party maintenance vendors would do to their rates, if AA gave up on overhaul, and the vendors were the only game in town? 
 
BTW, NWA never did recover from that AMFA strike.  You just didn't hear about it in the news.  Then along comes Delta, and the whole thing gets buried in the merger confusion.

I have a buddy who runs an FBO, its pretty hard for him to find people. Most of what they find are older people not fresh out of school or the .mil
 
I see TIMCO adds begging people to come to Macon all the time. 
 
and you are exactly right about Northwest. It was so bad Delta quickly brought in work NW sent out because the numbers were so terrible. (I want to say it took about a year or so for the 319/320s c-checks to come in-house) 

 

[Buck]

How many small businesses would be affected with yes or no answer? 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

I think Bob probably hit the nail on the head some time ago. There is no shortage of qualified people, just a shortage of people willing to put up with low pay and sub par benefits. I am paraphrasing of course. 
 
These MRO's do not have a talent pool problem, they have a cheap problem.

 

[lpbrian]

No airline can go 150 days without a MX cancellation.

 

[dfw gen]

No airline can go 150 days without a MX cancellation.

super duper delta is just not any airline. besides i think top dawg is an alter ego if world fraud..