Tulsa AMT movement.

[Bob Owens]

 
 
 
Breaking it out further AA Line has 3,199 total AMTs and CCs which shows us AA has a total of 4.6 AMT/CCs per aircraft. For Base there are 3,578 AMT/OSM/CCs for 5.1 per aircraft for overhaul.
 
UPS has 237 mainline aircraft for 1,200 (Bob's number) for a total of 5.1 per aircraft which work what we at AA would call Line work. And UPS has part time aircraft mechanics FYI for example http://jobview.monster.com/UPS-Part-time-Aircraft-Maintenance-Tech-Jackson-Miss-Job-FLOWOOD-MS-US-148809206.aspx?mescoid=4900865001001 Maybe Bob can match that awesome IBT scope provision too.
 
So the net effect of IBT scope language providing for all overhaul to be outsourced is the reduction of 3,248 AA base AMT/OSM/CCs that will need to have their jobs outsourced to get the AA Line AMTs all the stuff Bob has shown where we lag behind UPS mechanics. Or the 591 crew has to fight for getting all 3,248 at risk AA Base mechanics the same pay as the new "like UPS" AMT wage and benefit package.
 
That should be easy for the 591 whiz kids.
 
FYI - All Line TWU including cleaners, TCCs, and QA is 3,423 Bob.

 
Which scope language are you referring to the one that allows them to outsource 35% of maintenance spend and do it anywhere in the world or the one that restricts outsourcing to within the US? 
 
The fact is with our scope language they could outsource all of OH. Thanks to the language you voted YES for. Not only could they outsource all of OH just like UPS but they could outsource it anywhere in the world, unlike UPS which has to outsource it within the US. 
 
Dont understand why you say that in order to get us up to UPS rates we have to lose OH. UPS does pay for OH you know.
 
 
And AA has a higher profit margin than  UPS. AA can afford to pay.
 
 AA is having trouble getting mechanics, possibly because even UPS is hiring.  AA does have a new hire class at JFK but all of them are from out of state, so what that means is once their 6 months are up they will have their transfers in to wherever. They had to scour the country to find a dozen people. I don't see AA dumping OH because AA isnt the only one having problems getting people. AAR has been saying for years that they would expand if they could find people. If AA were to dump OH where would they send the work? Overseas I guess, thanks to you they can. 
 
By the way our contract allows for Part Time mechanics as well. My guess is a part time UPS Mechanic in Jackson Mississippi lives a lot larger on his part time $50/hr, where they don't extract $4k a year for medical, than a Full Time mechanic for AA in NY or LAX. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Overspeed
 
Its sad how you continue to come here and say, despite the fact that AA is earning billions in profits, that we have to work for less because there are more of us. I think we bring value to the table, you see us as a liability I think we are an asset that has been conditioned by corrupt Union officials to believe we are liabilities. The fact that AA has more skilled productive maintenance workers in house should be leverage, not a disadvantage. Tulsa may have to accept more of a differential , something they consistently shot down in the past, (Tulsa even shot down a paltry 50 cent increase for the line, said if they put that in the deal it was DOA in Tulsa-John Hewitt) but its wrong to say that its either we all accept half UPS rates or all of OH has to go. Maybe the line should go for UPS and the base should go for WN. I'd say you could live pretty well in Tulsa at WN rates, better than in NY at UPS rates. 
 
 
The fact is that UPS has not increased outsourcing in exchange for higher pay. They always outsourced because with only 200 planes it made more sense to outsource. They outsourced even when our wages and terms were nearly the same. So UPS pays a vendor a rate that allows the vendor to earn a profit to OH their airplanes. Even if they wanted to bring that work in house they would face the huge start up costs and have to find staff, then get that staff up to speed for a fleet that they probably do not expect to grow.  AA has all that in place already. Why would they give it away? When UAL, DL, and US started outsourcing they did so when the market was flooded with out of work Aircraft Mechanics and Air Travel was down due to the recession that occurred around 9-11. They could not compete with AA that had things like OSMs and other low wage structures in place. So how do you get a guy to go from $35/hr to $20/hr when you don't have a management friendly union in place? You lay them off and send the work to an MRO who hires them. That window of opportunity is closed at the moment. The MROs have more than enough work, just not enough workers. This gives the MROs pricing power, in fact they have had it for sometime, AA did not want to outsource narrow body in BK because they said they wouldn't save any money doing so. If anything MRO rates are going up, not down. So saying that we have to accept low wages to "save OH" simply isn't the case anymore. Our low wage rates pose the bigger threat to OH than MRO's because AA is having trouble filling Line positions and the workforce is old, people will continue to leave. Our OH may serve as a pool of A&Ps. When the company cant fill spots they simply announce a RIF in OH and say "If you want a job go to NY".My guess is 80% would take the layoff and only 20% would go but its still a pool and by the license plates I see in the parking lot AA is having a hard time keeping places like NY staffed with experienced mechanics and the situation will get worse as locals continue to retire and resign.  New aircraft are another threat to OH, less internal demand and plenty of time to find a vendor. We may also see where planes are returned to the manufacturer for OH. The focus needs to be on making sure members have jobs, not that we have jobs so we can get more members. 

 

[Kev3188]

Overspeed
 
Its sad how you continue to come here and say, despite the fact that AA is earning billions in profits, that we have to work for less because there are more of us. I think we bring value to the table, you see us as a liability I think we are an asset that has been conditioned by corrupt Union officials to believe we are liabilities.

Nailed it.

The sooner labor (again) sees itself as a revenue generator and not as a drag on the system, the better...

 

[1AA]

Plus maintaining a cargo jet is easier and less costly than a passenger jet.

And you know this from personal experience working on freighters and commercial aircraft?

 

[bigjets]

Anyway, what's happening in TULSA ?

More layoffs? The line stations are short mechs especially NY.
More work coming in?
Recalling mechs?
I was hoping for some info since our "unions" like to keep us in the dark.

 

[scorpion 2]

Overspeed
 
Its sad how you continue to come here and say, despite the fact that AA is earning billions in profits, that we have to work for less because there are more of us. I think we bring value to the table, you see us as a liability I think we are an asset that has been conditioned by corrupt Union officials to believe we are liabilities. The fact that AA has more skilled productive maintenance workers in house should be leverage, not a disadvantage. Tulsa may have to accept more of a differential , something they consistently shot down in the past, (Tulsa even shot down a paltry 50 cent increase for the line, said if they put that in the deal it was DOA in Tulsa-John Hewitt) but its wrong to say that its either we all accept half UPS rates or all of OH has to go. Maybe the line should go for UPS and the base should go for WN. I'd say you could live pretty well in Tulsa at WN rates, better than in NY at UPS rates. 
 
 
The fact is that UPS has not increased outsourcing in exchange for higher pay. They always outsourced because with only 200 planes it made more sense to outsource. They outsourced even when our wages and terms were nearly the same. So UPS pays a vendor a rate that allows the vendor to earn a profit to OH their airplanes. Even if they wanted to bring that work in house they would face the huge start up costs and have to find staff, then get that staff up to speed for a fleet that they probably do not expect to grow.  AA has all that in place already. Why would they give it away? When UAL, DL, and US started outsourcing they did so when the market was flooded with out of work Aircraft Mechanics and Air Travel was down due to the recession that occurred around 9-11. They could not compete with AA that had things like OSMs and other low wage structures in place. So how do you get a guy to go from $35/hr to $20/hr when you don't have a management friendly union in place? You lay them off and send the work to an MRO who hires them. That window of opportunity is closed at the moment. The MROs have more than enough work, just not enough workers. This gives the MROs pricing power, in fact they have had it for sometime, AA did not want to outsource narrow body in BK because they said they wouldn't save any money doing so. If anything MRO rates are going up, not down. So saying that we have to accept low wages to "save OH" simply isn't the case anymore. Our low wage rates pose the bigger threat to OH than MRO's because AA is having trouble filling Line positions and the workforce is old, people will continue to leave. Our OH may serve as a pool of A&Ps. When the company cant fill spots they simply announce a RIF in OH and say "If you want a job go to NY".My guess is 80% would take the layoff and only 20% would go but its still a pool and by the license plates I see in the parking lot AA is having a hard time keeping places like NY staffed with experienced mechanics and the situation will get worse as locals continue to retire and resign.  New aircraft are another threat to OH, less internal demand and plenty of time to find a vendor. We may also see where planes are returned to the manufacturer for OH. The focus needs to be on making sure members have jobs, not that we have jobs so we can get more members. 

Nice post Bob. All the old school cheerleaders are way behind the eight ball when it comes to the overhaul base. The dynamic has changed since the creation of the srp/osm in 1995. Most of us in Tulsa have had enough and are looking to get out NOT go to a line station. A handful are young enough to benefit by transferring but for most there is no reason to. Maybe a few because they have no retiree medical or other considerations but for the ones who have spouses that they can get insured under there is no reason to move. Just take the early retirement as a supplemental income and move on with their lives.  Overhaul has a price regardless where its done. Even if the aircraft is returned to the manufacturer there is a cost built in. Even Danker is caught up in the old school train of thought that the right contract will keep more jobs in Tulsa. What will keep jobs in Tulsa is what works for the company's maintenance model not a few dollars on a pay check. If Tulsa can benefit the airlines maintenance efficiency then there will be work here. What worries me is that the US bunch will use Tulsa and the twu to get one more industry lowering contract in place before Tulsa becomes a shell of it's former self. I think Tulsa has a future but nothing like the past.      

 

[topDawg]

Apples and Apples, Not Apples to Carrots!!!

The company would give you the UPS Contract in a New York Minute!!!
1/3 of the 1000 AMT's are Part Time! Do You want that in your CBA?
3/4 of the 1000 AMT's go TDY from Thankgiving until Christmas Eve. Ready for a Four Week Road Trip. Do You want that in your CBA?

hey, get out of here with that logic. 

 

[MetalMover]

Plus maintaining a cargo jet is easier and less costly than a passenger jet.

Oh yea, cargo aircraft are made of cardboard like the packages they deliver.

 

[700UW]

Do they have a cabin filled of seats and PSUs?

Do they have full galleys?

More than one lav?

 

[Vortilon]

Do they have a cabin filled of seats and PSUs?

Do they have full galleys?

More than one lav?

 
It's still a heavy transport aircraft.  It's the same work, and an even bigger responsibility due to the fact that our planes carry passengers - not cargo.

 

[Vortilon]

Sanity check. Looking at the differences between AA and UPS there must be difference in scope and the financial effect of not having to pay pension, benefits, VC, medical, etc... to non-UPS employees doing work on UPS aircraft. So looking at the current TWU seniority list Bob's HC numbers are a bit off (which concerns me since he is the Treasurer and is responsible for making sure we all pay dues).
 
AA has 697 (The 900 Bob quotes must include LUS and they aren't under TWU scope) aircraft according to the Fleet page in Jetnet. TWU seniority list shows there are 6,777 total AMT and CCs as of today. That means AA has a total of 9.7 AMT/CCs per aircraft for Base and Line.
 
Breaking it out further AA Line has 3,199 total AMTs and CCs which shows us AA has a total of 4.6 AMT/CCs per aircraft. For Base there are 3,578 AMT/OSM/CCs for 5.1 per aircraft for overhaul.
 
UPS has 237 mainline aircraft for 1,200 (Bob's number) for a total of 5.1 per aircraft which work what we at AA would call Line work. And UPS has part time aircraft mechanics FYI for example http://jobview.monster.com/UPS-Part-time-Aircraft-Maintenance-Tech-Jackson-Miss-Job-FLOWOOD-MS-US-148809206.aspx?mescoid=4900865001001 Maybe Bob can match that awesome IBT scope provision too.
 
So the net effect of IBT scope language providing for all overhaul to be outsourced is the reduction of 3,248 AA base AMT/OSM/CCs that will need to have their jobs outsourced to get the AA Line AMTs all the stuff Bob has shown where we lag behind UPS mechanics. Or the 591 crew has to fight for getting all 3,248 at risk AA Base mechanics the same pay as the new "like UPS" AMT wage and benefit package.
 
That should be easy for the 591 whiz kids.
 
FYI - All Line TWU including cleaners, TCCs, and QA is 3,423 Bob.
 
We have had 30 years of guys that think like you negotiating for us, and look where we are with pay and benefits.  Bob is right in his assessment of you, and your handlers.  I look at the TWU international and you, as a bunch of hypocrites.  You preach your commie theories to the dues payers about sacrifice for the betterment of everybody BS.  Then as International appointees, take unreasonable salaries, and reward yourselves with double digit pay raises every year.  Not to mention the extra pension, and extra perks that go along with the position.  We have had enough!

 

[MetalMover]

Do they have a cabin filled of seats and PSUs?

Do they have full galleys?

More than one lav?

You're referring to cabin interiors...If anything. they're is a little less maintenance on a cargo jet.  Doesn't make it EASIER maintenance.

 

[FWAAA]

I would say that we compare to a Driver delivery man. Full time Union job. Comparing years of service in hourly rate they smoke us.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=United_Parcel_Service_(UPS),_Inc./Hourly_Rate

Uhh, no. The cargo handler/package sorter at UPS is most comparable to AA fleet service clerks. Many of them are part-time, but full-timers start at $11.00/hr, like this position in Miami:

http://jobs-ups.com/miami/cargo-handler/jobid5714265-cargo-handler-jobs

 

[Buck]

So those that decide these things, have determined that it is more economical to pay A&P Mechanics more money on aircraft that are easier to work on?
 
Do they UPS Mechanics only work Monday thru Friday 8-5 or what?

 

[700UW]

Less flights, less cycles, less wear and tear on the plane and its systems and parts.

Most cargo planes for UPS fly one to three legs a day compared to a passenger plane.