Tulsa AMT movement.

[Bob Owens]

 
 
I wasn't asking for your opinion. I was asking if YOU or your Local went to their or YOUR own personal Lawyer to see if the TWU could get out of the Association? You alluded that you perhaps don't believe that the International guys did check that out so I wanted to know if you double checked or verified that through Legal consultation?

 

Well you got it anyway. Neither the Local or I have a personal lawyer. I believe the International asked Rosen, their personal Lawyer, the one that testified in favor of the company against Local 501 and wrote up the deal in the first place. He should have been fired along with Little as well. 
 
 

 

What tactics? I'm not 100% sure if they can't? I said that I'm 100% sure that they won't.  Otherwise yes I did say that all "conversations" should be left on the table. Even the one's that have no chance of coming to pass.
 

Yep no chance you say, I seem to recall people saying that there was no chance of us not getting the prefunding match back. What did you do with yours?  Oh yes , three years later and its in arbitration and we could lose it.
 
I've said all along that going after the frozen pension is a concern, not a certainty and said the reasons why I think they would. Lets face it, the IAM is going to claim that by bringing our inferior vacation, Holiday, sick and OT terms up to theirs  that we are walking away with the lions share of the gains, I think they want our frozen pension assetts, which under the legal parameters set in place with the assistance of our Union currently is over 100% funded. 
 
 


 

Ok I really like this one. It's too cute. Your going to compare a pie in the sky 17% ethereal proposal to the "current" contribution rate to the IAMPF of $2.00 per hour for your group? C'mon Bob at least play fair. (Not shilling for the IAMPF but) Since you're using 7's in your formula let's say you do get "offered" the IAMPF (Or forced into) but the company agrees to an increase of the rate to $7.00 per hour replacing the 2. 
 

Pie in the sky? No its reality, the pilots got it, why shouldnt mechanics expect it as well?  Just like them we are FAA licensed Airmen. $2/hr, $7hr, don't care, I still would rather see it go where I can control it, and my right to use it and my labor as I see fit. How many times must I say it, I do not want any part of the IAMNPF Ponzi scheme"? Bad enough it looks like we are going to be forced into it, yes forced because I believe our only option to opt out and get a better 401K will be to reject the whole contract, if the contract gets voted in then we made our choice, but as I've said, I'm also concerned that they may go after the assets of our frozen pension as well. You can say they wont, I can say they will. The fact is there is nothing stopping them. You have your opinions based upon an imaginary $2billion shortfall, I base it on the fact that the rollover would produce a windfall due to rolling back the age from 60 to 65 and other restrictions which lower the expected liability of the plan. 

 

Now that 55 YO member goes up from $850.00 per month to $2,239.20 per month (leaving at 65 with no deductions). Your member lived a clean healthy lifestyle and get's in a good 20 years before passing. So 20 years of IAMPF payouts comes in at $537,408.  And I'm also going to assume that they continue to participate in the 401k albeit with no more match. Now with your 7% above Delta or UPS/Fedex wages putting in just 5.5% (standalone) to your 401k that member is looking at some hefty coin.

Bob if your going to do a formula in the future you may want to do one that's at least fair to what you are throwing out there?  
 

 
I based my $850 on the IAM handout, what did you base your $2239.20 on? 
 
 

 

You do realize that the APFA only secured their current tiered formula for 5 years right? 3% up to 9.9% if the member is over 50. After the 5 years runs it's course it reverts back to the same formula we currently have.
 

Thats your answer? That in five years their 401K will be as shitty as ours? And in five years their contract becomes amendable plus its not the same, its a contribution not a match. 
 

So let me get this straight? You want Delta plus 7%, keep all the jobs we have and a 17% 401k match? Or do you want UPS or FedEx wages? I'm guessing that you also want our medical costs to be lowered too right?
 

Yes, keep all the people we have, may or may not have the same number of jobs over the long haul, with mergeers comes synergies, so no we would not be able to keep every job meaning that if someone leaves they have to fill it, if you think thats really an option you are delusional. Use a similar formula like we had for 30 years of system protection, headcount reductions would be through attrition, besides, AA is having trouble hiring people, concessions for jobs doesnt make sense, thats like paying for air, this isnt 2003 or 2012.
 
Have you seen that AA made almost as much profit as United and Delta COMBINED?  (Over $4 billion compared to UAL and Delta at just over $2billion each and their workers get not only higher wages, better benefits but profit sharing as well. Why are you still of a beggars mindset when AA is making double the profits of its nearest competitor? Why are you still willing to settle for crumbs when they are making $4billion a year in profits? Our profits were closer to UPS than to our nearest passenger airline competitor, why shouldn't we expect UPS wages? Are you management? 

 

[WeAAsles]

Well you got it anyway. Neither the Local or I have a personal lawyer. I believe the International asked Rosen, their personal Lawyer, the one that testified in favor of the company against Local 501 and wrote up the deal in the first place. He should have been fired as well. 
 
So go hire yourselves a Lawyer and check it out. Are you telling me that you guys never asked the Seeham group about it? You guys have been using them so I would have to say that they are your Lawyers. Protect your members. Go seek Legal council and bring it back here in writing.
 

Yep no chance you say, I seem to recall people saying that there was no chance of us not getting the prefunding match. What did you do with yours? 


"When" I get it I'll figure out what I want to do with it?


 
Pie in the sky? No its reality, the pilots got it, why shouldn't mechanics expect it as well?


Didn't the Pilots HAVE and LOSE more retirement income and that's why they got a 17% contribution? "Expect" all you want. I hope the talks live up to your expectations. And before you try to paint me again, no I am not saying that you should set your sights low. Shoot for the Moon, why not.

 
 
I based my $850 on the IAM handout, what did you base your $2239.20 on? 


You based your formula on a current pie in the sky "possibility" I also based my formula on the same type of pie in the sky "possibility" 

 
And in five years their contract becomes amendable plus its not the same, its a contribution not a match. 

Cool. Good to know.
 
Yes, have you seen that AA made almost as much profit as United and Delta COMBINED?  Why are you still of a beggars mindset when AA is making double the profits of its nearest competitor? 

Where did I ever say what my expectations or demands were? I'll let my negotiators do their work and when they are done and present it to me I'll make my decision if it passes my personal smell test? You have your personal acceptable bar and I have mine. They may not be as different as you think?

 

[Bob Owens]

 Our profits ($4.2 billion) were closer to UPS ($4.5billion) than to our nearest passenger airline competitor ($2billion), why shouldn't we expect UPS wages? Are you management? When you consider that UPS has 435,000 employees and AA has 110,000 that  makes us four times as productive as far as profits per employee than our much better paid UPS counterparts. AA employees generated $38,000 in profits per employee while at UPS each employee only generated $10,000 (which is still phenomenal) in profits yet asking for what they get is "pie in the sky"? .  
 

 

"When" I get it I'll figure out what I want to do with it? 
 

I take it you arent holding your breath?
 
 


 

Didn't the Pilots HAVE and LOSE more retirement income and that's why they got a 17% contribution? "Expect" all you want. I hope the talks live up to your expectations. And before you try to paint me again, no I am not saying that you should set your sights low. Shoot for the Moon, why not.
 

 

 

You based your formula on a current pie in the sky "possibility" I also based my formula on the same type of pie in the sky "possibility"  
 

 Ok, I based mine on what the pilots have, and the IAM handout, what did you base yours on? 
 

 

Cool. Good to know.
 

Yes, and something you should have known before making your comment. 
 
 
 
 

Where did I ever say what my expectations or demands were? I'll let my negotiators do their work and when they are done and present it to me I'll make my decision if it passes my personal smell test? You have your personal acceptable bar and I have mine. They may not be as different as you think?
 

The tone of your posts sound as if we are still under a take what the company offers or else, either trade jobs or trade pay,  menbtaility, one of diminished expectations, the fact is we need to be of the mindset to say f-ck you that austerity pie ain't going to cut it when your profits are close to double your nearest passenger competitor. 

 

[WeAAsles]

 Our profits ($4.2 billion) were closer to UPS ($4.5billion) than to our nearest passenger airline competitor ($2billion), why shouldn't we expect UPS wages? Are you management? When you consider that UPS has 435,000 employees and AA has 110,000 that  makes us four times as productive as far as profits per employee than our much better paid UPS counterparts. AA employees generated $38,000 in profits per employee while at UPS each employee only generated $10,000 (which is still phenomenal) in profits yet asking for what they get is "pie in the sky"? .  

So UPS has 3 times as many employees, pays them more than AA and comes up about even still in profits. So what does that tell you Bob? Are you looking at all at Total Revenue? Here I'll put up the comparisons.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=UPS+Income+Statement&annual

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=AAL+Income+Statement&annual

 

[swamt]

I am not going to need it. I was smart enough to walk away from this mess (and by that I mean the AA/TWU conglomerate) and start a new career.
 
Once they froze the pension that was the beginning of the end of my career in the Airline business.
 
 
I will never forget.... I was in the shop getting my supplies together to go to the hanger and I overheard one of the old timers say "This is not a career anymore... it's a job, they took too much". I had doubts about leaving (American Airlines being one of the better paying employers in my area) before but that pretty much drove it home for me. I knew it was time to get out.
 
 
I unlike (I assume) most of the patrons of this forum have worked both sides at American Airlines (white and blue collar) and I have to say the white collar side was much more peaceful and productive. I did not feel miserable going to work every day like I did in Fleet Service. Given my experiences I can only conclude that the morale of the blue collar side is engineered by American Airlines and implemented with the cooperation of the TWU. 

Sorry about that.  The mechanic group as a whole is who I was directing the good lucks to.  One week left for collecting cards to turn them in by Fri.

 

[WeAAsles]

 I take it you arent holding your breath?

Oh no. I firmly believe that we are going to get those funds returned to us. Will it be a check or maybe even negotiated into a bridge is the question? But any way you cut it I believe that money will be utilized for MY benefit and not for what the company thinks they can do with it. 

 
Yes, and something you should have known before making your comment. 


Contribution, match. Ok I'm glad you told me what the PILOTS get. I'm more concerned with what I get eventually, personally.
 
 
The tone of your posts sound as if we are still under a take what the company offers or else, either trade jobs or trade pay,  mentality, one of diminished expectations, the fact is we need to be of the mindset to say f-ck you that austerity pie ain't going to cut it when your profits are close to double your nearest passenger competitor. 

Maybe you read it that way because you believe that everyone out there is ingrained with that mindset? Many people are but I'm not. I know full well what the company is making and read all of the analysts projections as well. Barring any major "event" we're in a VERY different world then we have ever been in either one of our careers. "A New Golden Age" 

And Bob please stop adding things after you've already posted. Jesus H that get's confusing.

 

[swamt]

The entire industry is waiting to see how far the TWU lowers the bar!

I know what you actually mean, but some may not.  Me personally, I hope the AA mechanics get top of the industry wages and contract and I don't care who is the representational union.  
 

 Our profits ($4.2 billion) were closer to UPS ($4.5billion) than to our nearest passenger airline competitor ($2billion), why shouldn't we expect UPS wages? Are you management? When you consider that UPS has 435,000 employees and AA has 110,000 that  makes us four times as productive as far as profits per employee than our much better paid UPS counterparts. AA employees generated $38,000 in profits per employee while at UPS each employee only generated $10,000 (which is still phenomenal) in profits yet asking for what they get is "pie in the sky"? .  
 

 

I take it you arent holding your breath?
 
 


 
 

 

 Ok, I based mine on what the pilots have, and the IAM handout, what did you base yours on? 
 

 
Yes, and something you should have known before making your comment. 
 
 
 
 
The tone of your posts sound as if we are still under a take what the company offers or else, either trade jobs or trade pay,  menbtaility, one of diminished expectations, the fact is we need to be of the mindset to say f-ck you that austerity pie ain't going to cut it when your profits are close to double your nearest passenger competitor. 

I agree Bob. We all should be shooting for the UPS wages.  And right now with record profits and incomes coming in there should be no problem getting to them.  Everyone in contract talks right now, AA, SWA, UAL and guess who?  UPS mechanics are currently at the table as well.  Alaska comes up I believe later this year as well and they will be getting raises per the comparo clause in their contract since other airlines have received some raises since they nego their current contract.  Let's just hope the record numbers continue for some time for a change.  Good luck to all mechs in nego's or soon to be...

 

[topDawg]

I know what you actually mean, but some may not.  Me personally, I hope the AA mechanics get top of the industry wages and contract and I don't care who is the representational union.  
 
I agree Bob. We all should be shooting for the UPS wages.  And right now with record profits and incomes coming in there should be no problem getting to them.  Everyone in contract talks right now, AA, SWA, UAL and guess who?  UPS mechanics are currently at the table as well.  Alaska comes up I believe later this year as well and they will be getting raises per the comparo clause in their contract since other airlines have received some raises since they nego their current contract.  Let's just hope the record numbers continue for some time for a change.  Good luck to all mechs in nego's or soon to be...

UPS wages comes UPS scope.........(or lack there of) 

 

[topDawg]

So UPS has 3 times as many employees, pays them more than AA and comes up about even still in profits. So what does that tell you Bob? Are you looking at all at Total Revenue? Here I'll put up the comparisons.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=UPS+Income+Statement&annual

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=AAL+Income+Statement&annual

hey calm down with all that math your doing there. Just go with it. 

 

[Bob Owens]

And Bob please stop adding things after you've already posted. Jesus H that get's confusing.

Sure right after you stop using colors instead of quotes. 

 

[Bob Owens]

So UPS has 3 times as many employees, pays them more than AA and comes up about even still in profits. So what does that tell you Bob? Are you looking at all at Total Revenue? Here I'll put up the comparisons.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=UPS+Income+Statement&annual

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=AAL+Income+Statement&annual

That makes our argument even stronger that we are more efficient and productive than our much better paid peers at UPS. Thanks. 

 

[WeAAsles]

Sure right after you stop using colors instead of quotes. 

Ok I just figured out how to do it. Yea I know people keep telling me they hate the colors.

 
 

That makes our argument even stronger that we are more efficient and productive than our much better paid peers at UPS. Thanks. 

 
 
Looking at the financials that's what you come up with? OK.
 


 

 

[Bob Owens]

 
Oh no. I firmly believe that we are going to get those funds returned to us. Will it be a check or maybe even negotiated into a bridge is the question? But any way you cut it I believe that money will be utilized for MY benefit and not for what the company thinks they can do with it.  

 
 
So if they "negotiate" an agreement where we can only use those funds to buy coverage from AA at rates that AA determines thats ok with you? As far as I'm concerned being told I can only use my money to buy coverage from AA at the greatly inflated rate of $1000 per month per person is really no different than simply losing the money. I could do better with it on the outside under the ACA. If you are restricted to returning the money to AA in any way then you lost those funds, even if you think that it was used for you. The company used a similar spin when they decided to terminate the Supplimental medical, they terminated the plan, kept all the money but then claimed that they weren't getting it, that the money could be used for our benefits. Of course thats was pure spin, the fact is sure the money was used for our benefits but we didn't get any additional benefit from that use other than what we were already entitled to, the company took that money and used it to cover their obligations, this left millions that would have been needed to cover those obligations still sitting in AA's general fund, so its really no different than them sticking it in their pockets. 
 
 

Maybe you read it that way because you believe that everyone out there is ingrained with that mindset? Many people are but I'm not. I know full well what the company is making and read all of the analysts projections as well. Barring any major "event" we're in a VERY different world then we have ever been in either one of our careers. "A New Golden Age" 
 

But your posts still come across as one with and promoting diminished expectations. 

 

[Bob Owens]

 
Ok I just figured out how to do it. Yea I know people keep telling me they hate the colors.

 
 
 
 
Looking at the financials that's what you come up with? OK.
 


 

 

Yes, they brought in $58 billion with 435000 employees or around $133,000 per employee while AA brought in $42 billion with 110,000 per employee or around $381,000 per employee. We greatly outproduce UPS, unfortunately our management team obviously does not manage their other costs nearly as well as UPS but we still produce far higher revenue and profits than UPS per employee. 

 

[WeAAsles]

 
 
So if they "negotiate" an agreement where we can only use those funds to buy coverage from AA at rates that AA determines thats ok with you? As far as I'm concerned being told I can only use my money to buy coverage from AA at the greatly inflated rate of $1000 per month per person is really no different than simply losing the money. I could do better with it on the outside under the ACA. If you are restricted to returning the money to AA in any way then you lost those funds, even if you think that it was used for you. The company used a similar spin when they decided to terminate the Supplimental medical, they terminated the plan, kept all the money but then claimed that they weren't getting it, that the money could be used for our benefits. Of course thats was pure spin, the fact is sure the money was used for our benefits but we didn't get any additional benefit from that use other than what we were already entitled to, the company took that money and used it to cover their obligations, this left millions that would have been needed to cover those obligations still sitting in AA's general fund, so its really no different than them sticking it in their pockets. 

Who knows how our guys could negotiate it? Under your scenario of course not. I've got $6000.00 tied up. That would give me a lousy 6 months under your scenario. But what if it was a pre 65 bridge 60 to 65 that was subsidized at the employee rate?

There is another contract out there that does that only they use sick bank to fund it until it's exhausted. Any way you cut it I could see something coming back in the future. I don't really think the company wants all of us old farts flapping around (I know you disagree) It's either that or they're going to have to offer buyouts in the future to get us out the door?
 

But your posts still come across as one with and promoting diminished expectations. 

You read it however you feel most comfortable. Not everyone plans on getting to the end of the road the way you want to drive on it Bob.