Tulsa AMT movement.

[OldGuy@AA]

Peterson and the other 5 guys on the TWU side can vote no on giving up the pension and the 6 guys on the IAM side will vote to get it in order to financially preserve their payouts when they retire. So a 6 to 6 tie will be decided by the chair. Who will be a IAM guy overseeing negotiations. If it gets to this point we can kiss our pensions good buy. This is why we need to get those cards signed. All tie breakers will go in favor over the IAM who have 1/4 of the membership compared to the TWU side. Fair my A$$!!

Well then Danker needs to do the roll call vote and use all our numbers to vote no.  They do it to hurt us, let's see if they'll do it to help us.

 

[scorpion 2]

We got him during lunch and he stayed for about 30 minutes.  Dale Danker and Gary Yingst  were with him along with the poster formerly known as Highspeed Steel and some other executive board members.  I thought Danker and Yingst did a great job of making sure there were no more questions before they left.  I did feel the need to tell Doyle again that it was apparent the international was going to let the local leadership take the beating over the pension issue.  This could have been put to bed long ago and I told him if there was no documented guarantee it would continue.  Jay Potter said AMFA was using this to get cards signed and I told him there would be no AMFA threat if AMTs thought the TWU was doing a good job representing them.  He really didn't have a response to that.  I will tell you that Dale Danker told me personally that he (along with Pike and Peterson) will not allow our pensions to be negotiated away into the IAMNPF.  His word is worth much more than Doyle's in my opinion.  We'll see.  I still think the IAM is going to try to steal our pension. Hopefully Danker, Peterson and Pike can stop it.

Thanks for the great post. The pension issue has taken front and center and it should but reminding them that its not the only issue was well timed. I had some dealings with Doyle in the past and he likes to fall back on the fact that he wasn't present in the Little era. He didn't seem well informed either or just played dumb. Jay Potter claimed a few months back that our pension trust couldn't be touched so is he still making that claim or has it changed to they won't let it happen?     

 

[AANOTOK]

Thanks for the great post. The pension issue has taken front and center and it should but reminding them that its not the only issue was well timed. I had some dealings with Doyle in the past and he likes to fall back on the fact that he wasn't present in the Little era. He didn't seem well informed either or just played dumb. Jay Potter claimed a few months back that our pension trust couldn't be touched so is he still making that claim or has it changed to they won't let it happen?     

Maybe you guys should check with Mr. Owens. He seems to think that since the "Association" is in control the first two years, they will call the shots. Does that include allowing the AA pension to be up for grabs? Dunno, ask him.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Maybe you guys should check with Mr. Owens. He seems to think that since the "Association" is in control the first two years, they will call the shots. Does that include allowing the AA pension to be up for grabs? Dunno, ask him.

Hopefully Bob reads this stuff and gives us his take.  

 

[1AA]

Well then Danker needs to do the roll call vote and use all our numbers to vote no.  They do it to hurt us, let's see if they'll do it to help us.

We do not want it to go that far. Guys will see a pay raise and jump on a yes vote without considering the rest of the contract. I'm not even sure that a roll call vote will exist with the association.

 

[Real tired]

Thanks for the great post. The pension issue has taken front and center and it should but reminding them that its not the only issue was well timed. I had some dealings with Doyle in the past and he likes to fall back on the fact that he wasn't present in the Little era. He didn't seem well informed either or just played dumb. Jay Potter claimed a few months back that our pension trust couldn't be touched so is he still making that claim or has it changed to they won't let it happen?     

I don't know who Mr. Potter is, but "in my opinion", I beleive his statement is the most correct.  I don't think they can go after your trust.  But your match money is another matter and I think it's in jeopardy.
 
The $2.00 per hour has to come from somewhere. 
 
See Article 21 (A) in our contract for more info.

 

[scorpion 2]

I actually got to speak with Sean Doyle.  I told him our local leadership was getting beat to death with the questions about our pensions being rolled into the IAMNPF and he denied that it will happen and explained why AA wouldn't want to do it and why the TWU wouldn't want to.  I asked him for a document signed by Lombardo that guarantees us it will not happen and he said he'd look into it.  Needless to say i don't expect any document from him or Lombardo.  While answering questions about our lack of industry pay and benefits compared to other groups, he couldn't help but point out we have more AMTs per acft than anyone else "Bar none".  I informed him that our own flight attendants number more per acft than anyone else "Bar none" and they seem to have no trouble getting industry leading pay and 9% 401k contributions by the company.  I told him it looked to me like they didn't feel the need to take less to keep them all employed.  I then asked how many fleet service clerks and stock clerks there were per acft at AA?  He didn't answer that question.  He got hammered by a few guys about how the TWU always seems able to get the top pay for FS and Stores but never for AMTs.  He was also asked about the equity grab by the TWU and said that the stock has been sold and the cash is being invested and so far has made 15% interest.  He said at the end of the law suit and after paying all the costs of it we will all get a check.  
     The most interesting things were the things he claimed to not know.  He said he didn't know AA had more flight attendants per acft than anyone else and he also said he didn't know they were getting a 9% 401K contribution by AA without having to match any of it.  This should frighten all of us since this guy is leading the AMT negotiations for AA.  

They sold the stock and are investing the money?    What price did they sell them for?   How many shares were sold?   Were they sold high and we will be told they were sold low?  Will we ever really know how many shares we should have gotten?    Another twu mystery that will go unsolved.  This sh!t has got to end.   

 

[scorpion 2]

Well then Danker needs to do the roll call vote and use all our numbers to vote no.  They do it to hurt us, let's see if they'll do it to help us.

The ASS has no members to roll call. The negotiators are appointed anyway so if a roll call was an option it could be used to cheat the system like the twu has done for years. I'm sure the iam knew this. That's probably why the ASS has no members. 

 

[swamt]

I actually got to speak with Sean Doyle.  I told him our local leadership was getting beat to death with the questions about our pensions being rolled into the IAMNPF and he denied that it will happen and explained why AA wouldn't want to do it and why the TWU wouldn't want to.  I asked him for a document signed by Lombardo that guarantees us it will not happen and he said he'd look into it.  Needless to say i don't expect any document from him or Lombardo.  While answering questions about our lack of industry pay and benefits compared to other groups, he couldn't help but point out we have more AMTs per acft than anyone else "Bar none".  I informed him that our own flight attendants number more per acft than anyone else "Bar none" and they seem to have no trouble getting industry leading pay and 9% 401k contributions by the company.  I told him it looked to me like they didn't feel the need to take less to keep them all employed.  I then asked how many fleet service clerks and stock clerks there were per acft at AA?  He didn't answer that question.  He got hammered by a few guys about how the TWU always seems able to get the top pay for FS and Stores but never for AMTs.  He was also asked about the equity grab by the TWU and said that the stock has been sold and the cash is being invested and so far has made 15% interest.  He said at the end of the law suit and after paying all the costs of it we will all get a check.  
     The most interesting things were the things he claimed to not know.  He said he didn't know AA had more flight attendants per acft than anyone else and he also said he didn't know they were getting a 9% 401K contribution by AA without having to match any of it.  This should frighten all of us since this guy is leading the AMT negotiations for AA.  

 
 

The bottom line is there would be no AMFA threat if the TWU had been doing their job.  It seems to me that since Fleet and Stores are sitting as we speak at industry standard and AMTs are far behind, a case could be made that the TWU has been getting good deals for other groups at the expense of the AMTs.  The TWU denies this but does not offer any explanation as to how this disparity is allowed to continue.  When pressed about it, the going response is that we have more AMTs per aircraft than anyone else.  Since we do more of our own maintenance of course we do.  We do more maint. than anyone else because it gives AA a financial incentive obviously.  If it didn't our overhaul would have been gone a long time ago.  We also told Doyle to get us our seniority rights back so we can tell AA to stuff it and lay us all off and we can go to the station where our seniority will get us.  This way any lay off hurts AA since we can go to any station.  He talked this up but I wouldn't bet on us getting that since it would not be beneficial to AA.  I am just sick and tired of having to fight our own union to try to make them do what we pay them to do.  We pay for this representation and we deserve better.

Yes. In both your responses you state that the TWU says AA has the most mechanics per aircraft and that's the way they (TWU) will alway present it.  The more members the more dues they will get. It has been their way of thinking for well over 30 years. And this is why you guys are and will remain at the bottom of the scales.  Keep them if you all want, and you will remain where you all are.
 

They sold the stock and are investing the money?    What price did they sell them for?   How many shares were sold?   Were they sold high and we will be told they were sold low?  Will we ever really know how many shares we should have gotten?    Another twu mystery that will go unsolved.  This sh!t has got to end.   

You are 100% correct sir. You guys will never know what they sold anything for. Keeping you all in the dark as they always do. And they will feed you guys what they want to feed you to keep you all calm and collective.  This sh!t does have to end and right now is the best time to fix it. Sign the cards gentlemen, get them in and fire the TWU as well as the IAM and this BS association before you guys are stuck with them, or it (association) for the rest of your careers.  Take charge of your futures and get the cards in. Otherwise I don't want to hear sh!t from nobody.  This is your chance to make a huge difference from here on out. The question still remains will you guys have the balls to make it happen?

 

[OldGuy@AA]

They sold the stock and are investing the money?    What price did they sell them for?   How many shares were sold?   Were they sold high and we will be told they were sold low?  Will we ever really know how many shares we should have gotten?    Another twu mystery that will go unsolved.  This sh!t has got to end.   

Sean Doyle was back again today and spoke to some other guys.  He said they sold all the stock, but not all at once.  He also stated how much money that resulted in but I didn't write the figure down.  I am thinking it was 80 something million if my memory serves.  He says we have made 15.9% on this money so far with investments and also the TWU has paid over $3 million in short term capital gains on it.  They did keep some shares of stock, according to Doyle, that are set aside for people who were fired and have a chance at getting their jobs back.  At some point I imagine there will have to be a disclosure on how many shares were sold (I don't remember the number he gave) and what they were sold for.  I don't think even the TWU could avoid having to provide some kind of documentation.  But the thing that remains unknown is how much of this cash will be earmarked for legal fees.  We obviously won't be told what that is until the law suit is completely done with.

 

[2ndGENAMT]

I attended one of the meetings and came out of it less optimistic about my future. Doyle telling us about all that is going on with the Equity then about our company match for the retirement medical and how our Pension is not going anywhere. Sitting there I am thinking, he's talking about a promised program "retirement medical" that is GONE and the matching funds in limbo and he is promising my pension is completely safe, GIVE ME A BREAK....

The whole time this appointed International VP or whatever he is from Fleet is schooling the Tulsa masses our " elected president Danker and that VP Yingst standing behind him nodding like a couple of Bobbleheads!

I'm guessing this is exactly how the upcoming negotiations will go.

Sign a card people!

 

[scorpion 2]

Sean Doyle was back again today and spoke to some other guys.  He said they sold all the stock, but not all at once.  He also stated how much money that resulted in but I didn't write the figure down.  I am thinking it was 80 something million if my memory serves.  He says we have made 15.9% on this money so far with investments and also the TWU has paid over $3 million in short term capital gains on it.  They did keep some shares of stock, according to Doyle, that are set aside for people who were fired and have a chance at getting their jobs back.  At some point I imagine there will have to be a disclosure on how many shares were sold (I don't remember the number he gave) and what they were sold for.  I don't think even the TWU could avoid having to provide some kind of documentation.  But the thing that remains unknown is how much of this cash will be earmarked for legal fees.  We obviously won't be told what that is until the law suit is completely done with.

There are so many variables on the stock it's will be impossible to know how much we got heisted for.  How many shares did 14% represent?  At what price did they get allocated? Did shares get withheld as the price increased? Did the twu get the shares early on and hold back shares for themselves as the price increased? How will we ever know what expenses were incurred legitimately and which ones were just lavish perks?    We will never know the real truth only the sanitized twu version.
Sign a card folks and lets end this miserable chapter slave unionism. 

 

[swamt]

And as usual, the TWU and IAM will lead you all astray.  You guys will never know. You will in fact be told exactly what the TWU wants you to be told. You guys will NEVER know the entire truth of these stocks.  Demand they open the books for the members to see.  It's the members money (stocks) demand to see the books.  If they refuse then get rid of these morons. Again what will it take for you guys to react to all of this?  This is pathetic to sit back and watch. Take action people, take control of your union. They are suppose to work for you, hired by you (the membership) if any group was acting and performing for any of the top 500 companies, as the TWU is representing you guys they would have been FIRED along time ago. Wake up people and take control, sign a card and get this done. Do you guys think one iota that the pilots would stand for this? How bout the F/A's? No they would not. The longer you guys let this group control you the more you all will pay in the long run, plain and simple...

 

[Bob Owens]

Hopefully Bob reads this stuff and gives us his take.  

My take is that there is a document out there signed by the TWU and IAM thats forcing us to go into this Association, an Association the TWU side does not want but our leaders claim we cant get out of, likewise there is a Letter out there signed by the TWU and IAM where they agree that in Negotiations the objective will be to put us all in the IAMNPF, obviously if they could not get out of the Association they cant unilaterally get out of the Pension Agreement either. If they cant get us out of one they wont be able to get us out of the other.
 
I see the IAM sitting back and covering everything else first, leaving the pension for last. Then after those other issues such as Vacation, Holidays, Sick time, OT have been settled, where the TWU side sees more of a dollar value added than the IAM side, the IAM will try and jam this IAMNPF down our throats. The TWU side will of course object but the IAM will cite the money on the table, the fact that the changes to Vacation, Holidays, Sick etc add far more value to the AA side than the IAM side compared to the current agreements, then they will then pull out THE SIGNED LETTER and ask if the TWU side really wants to keep all that money out of their members pockets while they fight it out in Arbitration or the Courts and "let the members decide". Choice? I believe your choice will be ratify the deal which includes us going into the IAMNPF or voting down the contract.  Between now and the counting of the ballots we will not get full clarity or disclosure over exactly what we are agreeing to because it will be very "Rush, rush, rush and lets get this money in our members pockets". Perhaps it will be just going forward, or perhaps it will mean converting our frozen AA pension into the IAMNPF. So far all I've heard is there has not been discussion, not that there wont be and the signed letter pretty much makes it certain there will be. 
 
I also believe there will be not be a vote conducted by the NMB as there is no basis from what I read so far.  Two Unions decided to form an Association and the NMB has approved it. Effectively we are remaining with our chosen representatives, they are outsourcing Authority of our CBA to this Association they formed. Representation remains with the two Unions sharing the membership, like a girl being passed back and forth between two buddies. Then again if there is a vote from the NMB it would not surprise me but it would just be another example of how far the NMB has strayed away from making sure the members have representation of their choosing. By not conducting any vote the NMB can "claim" that they have acted in accordance with the expressed will of the chosen representation of membership, and if they didn't like it they had 30 days to solicit or form a new Union.
 
From what I heard there could be a ballot which would read "Association", which the members never voted for but which was approved by the NMB or "No Union". This is what the IBT did prior to their deal with the CWA, however even if the membership had voted "No Union" it would not have been enough to decertify the two Unions unless those Unions presented the results to the NMB and the NMB was willing to accept those results. Nothing would force them to do so. Such a Ballot coming from the NMB would be ludicrous. This would give the "No Union" threat two bites at the apple, but membership choice of representation only the very challenging standard of collecting enough cards within 30 day window, if the majority of members didn't want any Union they had that opportunity to express that by filing during the 30 day window, like any other Intervenor such as AMFA or the IBT. This would give the No-Union folks two bites at the Apple but the pro-union-anti-Association people only one bite. The IBT/CWA vote was in reality a Survey, not a valid representation vote.
 
 A vote conducted by the NMB along the lines of the  survey conducted by the IBT/CWA would really be coercion not Democracy. Its one thing for a Union to conduct a coercive survey, they do that all the time, it should be another thing for the NMB to add legitimacy to that by taking a survey and making it a vote for Representation set with the very limited parameters of "take something you never solicited for or have no union at all" . A ballot such as this from the NMB would be extremely sketchy and highly indicative of collusion between the NMB, the two unions and perhaps AA, in an effort to force workers into an organization NOT of their choosing. They would be straying very far from their own guidelines, which when there is a vote allow supporters of intervenors who have not met the minimum card requirement the opportunity to get written in by the members under the "other" option. Anything that doesn't include that would have them straying from their own guidelines even further than they already have. So either they recognize the Association as is and without any intervenors in the 30 days, no vote,  or they put out a Vote according to their guidelines, which would have to read Association, TWU, No Union, Other or Association, No Association, No Union, Other.  This would follow more with the spirit of the RLA and their own guidelines but I believe would also be unprecedented  because there really was never a challenge to representation initiated by the membership.
 
 If a "Association" or "No Union" ballot should come out I believe the Ballot will come from the Association itself in a weak attempt at proving legitimacy for the Association to the public and eventually to the members they strong-armed. After all we know the IAM is no stranger to thuggery.  They may claim that an internal No-Union vote would mean that we would lose our Unions but under what basis? It would not be an NMB vote,  we would no be able to have an NMB vote for a year due to the failure of an intervenor filing during the window (that we never solicited for). 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

And as usual, the TWU and IAM will lead you all astray.  You guys will never know. You will in fact be told exactly what the TWU wants you to be told. You guys will NEVER know the entire truth of these stocks.  Demand they open the books for the members to see.  It's the members money (stocks) demand to see the books.  If they refuse then get rid of these morons. Again what will it take for you guys to react to all of this?  This is pathetic to sit back and watch. Take action people, take control of your union. They are suppose to work for you, hired by you (the membership) if any group was acting and performing for any of the top 500 companies, as the TWU is representing you guys they would have been FIRED along time ago. Wake up people and take control, sign a card and get this done. Do you guys think one iota that the pilots would stand for this? How bout the F/A's? No they would not. The longer you guys let this group control you the more you all will pay in the long run, plain and simple...

The TWU membership is proof you can get so accustomed to something it becomes normal. They are so used to getting screwed over they don't even react anymore. 
 
TWU conditioning at its finest.