TUL mechs

[TRAVIS]

Travis is a PMUS mechanic, he was supporting the IBT.

 

TRAVIS, correct me if I am wrong but wasn't it you that was supporting the TWU during the IBT "raid"?

You know 700 I can answer my own post. The IAM doesn't have to type for me too. And BigMac to answer your question too me. I supported the IBT as I think they can do a better job than the IAM and as I said( I support any change that I feel that is good for MY A&P BROTHERS and at this time looks like it's the AMFA as the IBT has no dog in this fight. I will say this again AMFA was not my first choice but it is above a IAM/TWU choice. 

 

[700UW]

 
You know 700 I can answer my own post. The IAM doesn't have to type for me too. And BigMac to answer your question too me. I supported the IBT as I think they can do a better job than the IAM and as I said( I support any change that I feel that is good for MY A&P BROTHERS and at this time looks like it's the AMFA as the IBT has no dog in this fight. I will say this again AMFA was not my first choice but it is above a IAM/TWU choice. 

I am not the IAM nor am I posting for them. 

 

[TRAVIS]

I am not the IAM nor am I posting for them. 

LMFAO!

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

You know 700 I can answer my own post.

What you are seeing is the result of 700UW's ego. 

 

[MetalMover]

I am not the IAM nor am I posting for them. 

You sure do sound like you have a vested interest in them.

 

[topDawg]

So in other words you are advocating that if workers fight back they get stapled (start at the bottom like EAL) but if they roll over and give everything away and the people running the company decide to sell the company and pocket the value of their sacrifices that they get rewarded by being dovetailed?  Why would we advocate giving management the ability through their actions and decisions to manipulate seniority? 
 
Look at this scenario. 
 
Two mechanics start on the same day in 1975. One at EAL and one at TWA. 15 years later the EAL guy starts all over again at AA at the bottom after telling Frank Lorenzo to pound salt with his concessions, all airline workers benefit because by stopping Lorenzo the concessions train slowed down. Approximately 10 years later both mechanics have 25 years in the business, the Former EAL guy lost 15 years and only has 10 at AA when TWA, where workers repeatedly said yes to Ichann, bringing them to the lowest wage in the industry (thus putting downward pressure on all wages in the industry) with no pension, retiree medical etc, get bought out by AA. Due to the merger the TWA guys see a several thousand dollar a year increase in pay, on top of that you feel they should also get to bump out the EAL guys to the street?
 
This scenario is more valid than you may realize. In fact we could change it to the EAL guy hiring in in 1965 and the TWA guy in 1975 and still getting bumped out of a job at AA with a dovetail. Or even have the TWA guy starting in 1989 and bumping out in 1965 EAL guy at AA in the event of a Dovetail.Both ended up at companies they didn't start at. Both get screwed (maybe). One definitely gets screwed twice with a Dovetail. 
 
The fact is the overwhelming majority of TWA workers, much like USAIR workers welcomed the mergers, in both cases most of the AA workers were against the mergers. In both cases the other workers either saw or received a benefit to the merger while workers at AA saw ZERO benefit. 
 
Seniority is a Union right secured by contractual language. Unions should not allow the system to be used to encourage concessions. Did the TWA guys get screwed? Yes, but they screwed themselves by giving up their contract which included language that would have protected their seniority in a merger, they did this to facilitate the merger. They gave up the language to make it happen then they wanted us to honor the language that no longer existed. Unlike the EAL guys they still got to come over to a big increase in pay with their Vacation and sick banks intact, 100 % seniority in some station and 25% in others. That's what the arbitrator came up with. They could have said no and fought back but they didn't, instead they (their union) chose to give up their language. 
 
Maybe you should look a little closer at how seniority was handled at SWA/Air Tran. What the parties bring to the table matters, in the days when everyone pretty much got the same pay and benefits within pennies it was a much more strait forward process, both came as equals and are Dovetailed, but when one comes in with much less that changes things, that's how Kasher saw it, that is how it was determined at SWA as well. With US and AA we are both at the bottom of the industry, so I guess you can say we are equals. So Dovetail is appropriate, besides we are the larger group and I'm not wiling to give away contractual language protecting us in a merger to facilitate this merger. USAIRways is the carrier that's disappearing, not AA. 
 
 I've said before if SWA bought us and we went to their wages and benefits I would not complain about being stapled. Clearly we would benefit more from such a merger than the SWA guys would. 

 
first point. 
What if the guy at TWA you stapled was a no voter? See I can play stupid games too. DOH is the fair way to go. 
 
second point,
Wow. I make less than the guys at WN (Delta) but no way in hell would I trade my time for the money. Quality of life isn't just money. IMHO that is a point that you a a large amount of your "brothers" here are missing. Working a shift I hate, on days I hate, in a bay or a shop I hate, no more holidays with the family......
 
I personally think the attitude you and a bunch of other here have is exactly why your going to kill aircraft maintenance at airlines. End up like FX and 5X where you have 2,000 people on the list and all your work that isn't line work is sent to vendors.   

 

[2ndGENAMT]

Hearing about a management/production control layoff taking place in PALM..Can anyone in that area confirm?

 

[TWU informer]

I am not the IAM nor am I posting for them. 

 
LOL.....right
 
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"
Wizard of Oz

 

[TWU informer]

Hearing about a management/production control layoff taking place in PALM..Can anyone in that area confirm?

 
Yes, so far 4 Supervisors, 3 Planners, and one Staff Assistant with additional cuts scheduled for November 24

 

[MetalMover]

 
Yes, so far 4 Supervisors, 3 Planners, and one Staff Assistant with additional cuts scheduled for November 24

Must be those synergies taking shape!

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
first point. 
What if the guy at TWA you stapled was a no voter? See I can play stupid games too. DOH is the fair way to go.  This is true if you are talking about time in the current JOB,  as we call it at AA occupational time, NOT company time. Yrs ago there was very little upgrades from fleet so your DOH was the classification/occupational time. But with the new upgrades and jr programs there is NO WAY a guy who has 25 yrs on the ramp should come to maintenance and go to days with 6 months of A&P time. 
 
second point,
Wow. I make less than the guys at WN (Delta) but no way in hell would I trade my time for the money. Quality of life isn't just money. IMHO that is a point that you a a large amount of your "brothers" here are missing. Working a shift I hate, on days I hate, in a bay or a shop I hate, no more holidays with the family...... TRUE
 
I personally think the attitude you and a bunch of other here have is exactly why your going to kill aircraft maintenance at airlines. End up like FX and 5X where you have 2,000 people on the list and all your work that isn't line work is sent to vendors.   

 
TOPdawg
 
You sound as though You are one of the Blue bloods as I call you. The guys who have never been laid off hired into AA and have, reaped the bennies of the seniority you created. Alot of what should be done to be fair for all is NOT what you think should happen because it effects your deal.    The TWA guys got screwed and they should of been dovetailed in, just like the AIR-CAL guys. Many of the BLUE Bloods feel different and were against the merger we don't need them. It ended up we did not but it gave us market share vers the others who just merged. AA did away with the employees and the routes wasted the opportunity and did the same with RENO Air.
 
If you knew how it feels to start over at the bottom each time a airline you hired into went down for what ever reason you would think different. The guys who have been in this industry who worked for Boeing, McDonald Douglas, Eastern, Lockheed, PanAm, TWA, Air Florida, Continental, and all the others we took jobs at in the 70's and 80's, to feed our families understand this. Your still at the station you hired into I bet and never had to commute to keep the job you have am I right?

 

[MetalMover]

 
TOPdawg
 
You sound as though You are one of the Blue bloods as I call you. The guys who have never been laid off hired into AA and have, reaped the bennies of the seniority you created. Alot of what should be done to be fair for all is NOT what you think should happen because it effects your deal.    The TWA guys got screwed and they should of been dovetailed in, just like the AIR-CAL guys. Many of the BLUE Bloods feel different and were against the merger we don't need them. It ended up we did not but it gave us market share vers the others who just merged. AA did away with the employees and the routes wasted the opportunity and did the same with RENO Air.
 
If you knew how it feels to start over at the bottom each time a airline you hired into went down for what ever reason you would think different. The guys who have been in this industry who worked for Boeing, McDonald Douglas, Eastern, Lockheed, PanAm, TWA, Air Florida, Continental, and all the others we took jobs at in the 70's and 80's, to feed our families understand this. Your still at the station you hired into I bet and never had to commute to keep the job you have am I right?

Rehashing the TWA seniority issue is only going to open up old wounds. All we hear is how the TWA people got screwed. Ok But remember an arbitrator ruled. Both unions pleaded their case. I think it is safe to say that if there EVER were a vote between the IAM and the TWU, the seniority issue ALONE would be enough for most anti TWU members to vote FOR the TWU. 
All it does it stirs anger in both parties affected. But remember the TWU party is bigger.

 

[bigjets]

So in other words you are advocating that if workers fight back they get stapled (start at the bottom like EAL) but if they roll over and give everything away and the people running the company decide to sell the company and pocket the value of their sacrifices that they get rewarded by being dovetailed?  Why would we advocate giving management the ability through their actions and decisions to manipulate seniority? 
 
Look at this scenario. 
 
Two mechanics start on the same day in 1975. One at EAL and one at TWA. 15 years later the EAL guy starts all over again at AA at the bottom after telling Frank Lorenzo to pound salt with his concessions, all airline workers benefit because by stopping Lorenzo the concessions train slowed down. Approximately 10 years later both mechanics have 25 years in the business, the Former EAL guy lost 15 years and only has 10 at AA when TWA, where workers repeatedly said yes to Ichann, bringing them to the lowest wage in the industry (thus putting downward pressure on all wages in the industry) with no pension, retiree medical etc, get bought out by AA. Due to the merger the TWA guys see a several thousand dollar a year increase in pay, on top of that you feel they should also get to bump out the EAL guys to the street?
 
This scenario is more valid than you may realize. In fact we could change it to the EAL guy hiring in in 1965 and the TWA guy in 1975 and still getting bumped out of a job at AA with a dovetail. Or even have the TWA guy starting in 1989 and bumping out in 1965 EAL guy at AA in the event of a Dovetail.Both ended up at companies they didn't start at. Both get screwed (maybe). One definitely gets screwed twice with a Dovetail. 
 
The fact is the overwhelming majority of TWA workers, much like USAIR workers welcomed the mergers, in both cases most of the AA workers were against the mergers. In both cases the other workers either saw or received a benefit to the merger while workers at AA saw ZERO benefit. 
 
Seniority is a Union right secured by contractual language. Unions should not allow the system to be used to encourage concessions. Did the TWA guys get screwed? Yes, but they screwed themselves by giving up their contract which included language that would have protected their seniority in a merger, they did this to facilitate the merger. They gave up the language to make it happen then they wanted us to honor the language that no longer existed. Unlike the EAL guys they still got to come over to a big increase in pay with their Vacation and sick banks intact, 100 % seniority in some station and 25% in others. That's what the arbitrator came up with. They could have said no and fought back but they didn't, instead they (their union) chose to give up their language. 
 
Maybe you should look a little closer at how seniority was handled at SWA/Air Tran. What the parties bring to the table matters, in the days when everyone pretty much got the same pay and benefits within pennies it was a much more strait forward process, both came as equals and are Dovetailed, but when one comes in with much less that changes things, that's how Kasher saw it, that is how it was determined at SWA as well. With US and AA we are both at the bottom of the industry, so I guess you can say we are equals. So Dovetail is appropriate, besides we are the larger group and I'm not wiling to give away contractual language protecting us in a merger to facilitate this merger. USAIRways is the carrier that's disappearing, not AA. 
 
 I've said before if SWA bought us and we went to their wages and benefits I would not complain about being stapled. Clearly we would benefit more from such a merger than the SWA guys would.

This statement is flawed from the get go, EAL and TWA had CEOs that sold off assets for their personal or corp gain and no matter the executives at NWA were going to kill AMFA by offering 20% pay cut and 51% RIF no Union could vote that in.

 

[bigjets]

But anyway what's the rumors out of tulsa?

 

[Bob Owens]

 
TOPdawg
 
You sound as though You are one of the Blue bloods as I call you. The guys who have never been laid off hired into AA and have, reaped the bennies of the seniority you created. Alot of what should be done to be fair for all is NOT what you think should happen because it effects your deal.    The TWA guys got screwed and they should of been dovetailed in, just like the AIR-CAL guys. Many of the BLUE Bloods feel different and were against the merger we don't need them. It ended up we did not but it gave us market share vers the others who just merged. AA did away with the employees and the routes wasted the opportunity and did the same with RENO Air.
 
If you knew how it feels to start over at the bottom each time a airline you hired into went down for what ever reason you would think different. The guys who have been in this industry who worked for Boeing, McDonald Douglas, Eastern, Lockheed, PanAm, TWA, Air Florida, Continental, and all the others we took jobs at in the 70's and 80's, to feed our families understand this. Your still at the station you hired into I bet and never had to commute to keep the job you have am I right?

I think he is agreeing with you. 
 
Like I said under I don't like seeing where the message is to give concessions and hope another carrier buys you vs fight concessions and starting at a new carrier.  I think its wrong that an EAL guy comes in with nothing but then ten years of concessions later a TWA guy comes in ahead of him.
 
Personally I would rather see portable seniority, let us take our seniority with us at our discretion and not have our seniority be a tool for management. 
Such a set up is probably impossible to implement in this industry with us all split up into different unions so the next best thing is to structure contracts so seniority becomes what it was originally meant to be-lay-off protection. 
 
The objective for us as a profession should be to maximize portability and mobility, with these tools we can maximize compensation. One of the reasons why CEOs make what they make is because its easy to leave one job for another. Make it as easy as possible to move from one employer to another at our discretion. Seniority actually does the opposite, it makes us sitting ducks, vulnerable and hard to defend. To minimize the detrimental effects of seniority we need to rethink how we look at our profession and what makes us stay with employers that abuse us. 
 
First thing-eliminate progressions. One rate, if you want an A&P mechanic he is coming in at the same rate as everyone else. Everyone is at the same rate so the company can't divide and conquer by offering to bring some up to top rate with contract ratification. This also places a premium on experience and facilitates mobility. If I can quit AA and go work at UAL with a pay raise from Day one I'd be more inclined to do so, if UAL has to pay someone who knows what they are doing the same as someone who doesn't they will hire the one who does. 
 
Second thing- very large premiums for working shifts and weekends. In many skills Saturday is Double time and Sunday is triple time, you can earn a whole weeks pay by working those two days. With large premiums the Junior guys would be stuck with normal hours  such as day shift with weekends off. 
 
Third- Everyone should have the same vacation allotment and round robin should be the system. 
 
Forth- The mindset of "reward for years of service" died decades ago on the Corporate side. Among unionists holding on to that mindset causes nothing but division and weakness. Every move the Union makes should foster a sense identity as Union Mechanics, not XYZ Airline mechanics. Identity is important.