TUL mechs

[1airborne]

I'll ask you again....Why hasn't AMFA been booted out by the mechanics at SWA?

I work at SWA. If you ask almost any mechanic here at swa, you will find that 85-90% of the us think AMFA is doing a good job. The reason that the % is so high is we get to voice our opinion  and attend meeting's and vote on issues that affect our future. That is not to say everyone is completely happy, its just to say we think AMFA is the best union we can get for mechanic's.
 
There are still a few die hard teamsters still here, but I don't think that will ever change.
 
1airborne

 

[MetalMover]

I work at SWA. If you ask almost any mechanic here at swa, you will find that 85-90% of the us think AMFA is doing a good job. The reason that the % is so high is we get to voice our opinion  and attend meeting's and vote on issues that affect our future. That is not to say everyone is completely happy, its just to say we think AMFA is the best union we can get for mechanic's.
 
There are still a few die hard teamsters still here, but I don't think that will ever change.
 
1airborne

Thank you....I guess Overspeed can't come up with a better answer that supports his opinion.

 

[Overspeed]

I'll ask you again....Why hasn't AMFA been booted out by the mechanics at SWA?

 
Simple. They haven't been through BK to see what happens when faced with real adversity. It's easy to get raises and not face layoffs during growth. What will AMFA do at SW now that happy days are over and they now have legacy type management? One only has to look at history with AMFA to see how they perform.
 
AMFA at NW? Nothing left of their members there and DL M&R said they would rather be non-union then go with AMFA. UA? Booted.

 

[Overspeed]

 
None of your most recent rant explains away your previous lies.
 
You claimed....
 
 
This is a LIE. Heavy Overhaul was lost under the IAM, and our two overhaul bases(IND & OAK) were closed because of that - NOT because of AMFA
 
You claimed ...
 
 
This is a LIE. The link you originally provided was about our IAM PEB contract negotiations not bankruptcy proceedings - The deal AMFA made in 2005 had NOTHING to do with any IAM plan.
 
You claimed ...
 
 
This is a LIE. Under AMFA we took cuts during the second round of bankruptcy talks but those concessions were nowhere near as much as the concessions we took under the IAM.
 
 
 
If you wish to continue to insist these fabrications are the "truth" then PROVE IT.  You can't - You know it - You're a LIAR.   Thats the real truth here.

 
You read but you don't comprehend. Outsourcing was started under the IAM in 1113e and 1113c. No lie. You can twist the facts but outsourcing increased under AMFA, it did not come to a screeching halt. AMFA didn't enforce the IAM outsourcing langauage. They found it easier to blame the IAM instead of fighting (funny, OV said AMFA fights for professionals).
 
AMFA Rolls
 
By Amy Joyce
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, May 31, 2005; 5:05 PM
 

United Airlines' unions today agreed to contracts that will help move the company toward an exit from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.
 

Members of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association ratified a five year contract that will include pay and benefit cuts, saving the carrier $96 million and heading off a threatened strike. A few hours later, the International Association of Machinists agreed in principle to a new contract, just beating a bankruptcy court deadline.
 
The mechanics union, which represents 7,000 United Airlines mechanics and cleaners, voted 59 percent to 41 percent to a 3.9 percent pay cut, among other concessions.
 
"It's a sad situation that we have to bear the brunt of mismanagement," said O.V. Delle-Femine, the union's national director. "We had to accept it or let the judge do it. This was the lesser of two evils."
The mechanics union had authorized a strike if the contract vote failed, but many felt voting against the contract could bring the company down and eliminate their jobs altogether. United has been in bankruptcy court protection since December 2002. More than 80 percent of its members voted as today's deadline neared.


 
 
2003
IAM agreement allows unrestricted outsourcing of heavy maintenance and reduces furlough protections.
900 mechanics in Oakland and 1,400 at Indianapolis are laid off when UAL shutters both stations.
 
2005
2005-2009 AMFA agreement weakens scope, allowing all computer technician, fueler and utility maintenance work to be outsourced. UAL is freed to outsource heavy maintenance for B 747 fleet to China and 777 fleet to Korea. The mechanic headcount dropped from 6,600 to 5,500 in one year. Meanwhile, UAL inked a 5-year agreement with AMECO (renewed in 2010) to perform maintenance for the entire B 777 fleet at its hanger in Beijing.
 
2008
The total number of mechanics fell to 5,000 with more than 45% of mechanic work outsourced. UAL
parked its B 737 fleet and other aircraft due to financial crisis – 700 mechanics laid off.
UAL mechanics vote in Teamsters.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Overspeed your misinformation is so twisted and convoluted you can't keep your lies straight - you're disproving your own posts now.
 
First you tried to blame AMFA for the loss of heavy overhaul at UAL with this LIE ...
 

 
.... UA (gave in to mgmt's demands to outsource almost all airframe overhaul and blame the IAM), ....

 
Then in your most recent post you expose your own LIE for exactly that when you post that the IAM gave away heavy overhaul ...
 

 
2003
IAM agreement allows unrestricted outsourcing of heavy maintenance and reduces furlough protections.
900 mechanics in Oakland and 1,400 at Indianapolis are laid off when UAL shutters both stations.

 
Well done LIAR, Well done.

 

[swamt]

 
Because most you lack critical thinking skills let me explain it to you.
 
If you worked here in the late 80s through the early 90s you would know that AFW was built to handle a fleet far beyond 600 aircraft. Guess what? We are now at 600 aircraft so no need for AFW or MCI base capacity once AA shrunk from over 800 aircraft. There was no scope language to force AA to maintain facilities beyond the need of the airline. AFW only stayed open as long as it did because AA could only get rid of its obligations on the financing except in BK.
 
TUL jobs lost (2,500) in BK were because of the 1113c CBA agreement and AA still maintains more overhaul capacity than any other airline bar none.
 
AA forced concessions on all unions at AA. While concessions across all CBAs were not apples to apples, the fact remains all unions took cuts.
 
Your anti-Int'l, pro-AMFA local reps created the situation that led to retirees suing for equity shares. You voted for them. Little said don't cut them out or they may take legal action and it wasn't fair. Guess he was right.
 
Your right, the TWU should have said full pay to the last day, had pay cuts exceeding the 17.5% imposed, lost retiree medical in 2003, lost continued pension funding, and allowed shuttering of MCIE, AFW, and most of TUL overhaul capacity enabling AA to shed jobs down to less than 6,000 jobs instead of keeping all that stuff and the jobs for another 10 years.
 
So the TWU lost far fewer jobs than any other union or non-union company. That's a GOOOOOAAAALLLLL!!!!
 
AMFA never even made group play. Losing almost all your members jobs so they can smile and say they were fighters must feel awesome. Apparently not in the opinion of UA M&R, they had enough and dumped AMFA.

Holy shite!!  You are saying going from over 18,000 down to 6,000, and soon to be down to 4,000 is OK?  You have got to explain this, and please keep posting, your doing a great job, trust me...

 

[swamt]

Overspeed your misinformation is so twisted and convoluted you can't keep your lies straight - you're disproving your own posts now.
 
First you tried to blame AMFA for the loss of heavy overhaul at UAL with this LIE ...
 
 
Then in your most recent post you expose your own LIE for exactly that when you post that the IAM gave away heavy overhaul ...
 
 
Well done LIAR, Well done.

Which is why I constantly keep telling him to keep posting, I rest my case...

 

[Overspeed]

Overspeed your misinformation is so twisted and convoluted you can't keep your lies straight - you're disproving your own posts now.
 
First you tried to blame AMFA for the loss of heavy overhaul at UAL with this LIE ...
 
 
Then in your most recent post you expose your own LIE for exactly that when you post that the IAM gave away heavy overhaul ...
 
 
Well done LIAR, Well done.

 
There was no lie. The orginal post had to do with that AMFA was attempting to organize all the airlines after NWA. While the IAM was negotiating with UA under the threat and eventual BK AMFA spread lies about how they would fight outsourcing and never give in to company threats.
 
Well the IAM rejected the first concession agreements and were forced under the 1113e proceedings to take huge pay and benefit cuts by Wedoff. Then the IAM and other unions had no choice but to accept the concessions that were forced on them by the 1113 process. AMFA still claimed they would fight any further cuts if they made it on. In 2005 AMFA took over and when they said they would not accpt further cuts Wedoff basically told AMFA that they will because it would be unfair to other unions on UA property. So AMFA folded and further allowed more work to outsourced and took an additional almost 4% pay cut on top of the previous pay cuts taken by the IAM a few years before.
 
The UA membership realized they had been lied to after also witnessing AMFA's "wins" at NWA and AS (not under threat of BK) closing OAK base. Then walked in the IBT and out went AMFA. AMFA showed how it handles pressure by acting completely unprofessional and losing the jobs of 90% of its NWA members jobs and 50% of AS jobs, and futher pay, benefit, and job cuts at UA.
 
In the words of Charlie Sheen...winning!!!

 

[MetalMover]

 
Simple. They haven't been through BK to see what happens when faced with real adversity. It's easy to get raises and not face layoffs during growth. What will AMFA do at SW now that happy days are over and they now have legacy type management? One only has to look at history with AMFA to see how they perform.
 
AMFA at NW? Nothing left of their members there and DL M&R said they would rather be non-union then go with AMFA. UA? Booted.

Oh, So the TWU gets a pass because of BK?
How do explain the thousands of job losses PRIOR to BK?
You do remember how high the title 1 number was, don't you.
 
Oh, let me predict that you're gonna blame 9/11....or prior economic downturns.....
Let's rewind to 1983.....were you here then?
 
Finally, it should be no surprise to you that LAA will vote NO the the alliance and would rather be non union that live under two loser unions.

 

[Bob Owens]

[/quote]

Because most you lack critical thinking skills let me explain it to you.
 
Your anti-Int'l, pro-AMFA local reps created the situation that led to retirees suing for equity shares. You voted for them. Little said don't cut them out or they may take legal action and it wasn't fair. Guess he was right.
 

I like you to explain how you figure that all the other Presidents who are not AMT s are pro Amfa?

 

[Bob Owens]

[/quote]

Because most you lack critical thinking skills let me explain it to you.
 
Your anti-Int'l, pro-AMFA local reps created the situation that led to retirees suing for equity shares. You voted for them. Little said don't cut them out or they may take legal action and it wasn't fair. Guess he was right.
 

I'd like you to explain how you figure that all the other Presidents who are not AMT s are pro Amfa? As for Jim little explain why we only got 30 cents on the dollar for our concessions compared to the pilots? For every dollar of concessions given they got triple the equity we got and they were not at the bottom of the industry either.

 

[Overspeed]

Oh, So the TWU gets a pass because of BK?
How do explain the thousands of job losses PRIOR to BK?
You do remember how high the title 1 number was, don't you.
 
Oh, let me predict that you're gonna blame 9/11....or prior economic downturns.....
Let's rewind to 1983.....were you here then?
 
Finally, it should be no surprise to you that LAA will vote NO the the alliance and would rather be non union that live under two loser unions.

 
No, nobody gets a pass. The difference is AMFA and BK at NWA they ended up losing over 25% in pay and benefit cuts plus 90% of jobs. AMFA at UA ended up adding to the pay and benefit cuts plus more jobs (all but three lines of airframe overhaul and kept all engines) beyond what the IAM already gave up in BK.
 
The TWU at AA got an immediate 3% pay raise while in BK plus another 4.3%, plus equity totalling $25K per member, plus kept more lines of airframe overhaul than any airline regardless of BK, and kept most engines in-house. 36 months after DOS will be at parity with peer airlines.
 
No one gets a pass, it's just faced with similar circumstances...the TWU did far better.

 

[Overspeed]

 

I'd like you to explain how you figure that all the other Presidents who are not AMT s are pro Amfa? As for Jim little explain why we only got 30 cents on the dollar for our concessions compared to the pilots? For every dollar of concessions given they got triple the equity we got and they were not at the bottom of the industry either.
 

[/QUOTE] 
They need to explain themselves.
 
You should ask Jim that question. I would question your valuations myself Bob. Don't the pilots have a much more lucrative pension plan than any other work group? Yes they do so therefore they got more equity. Pretty simple Bob. Even a 591 treasurer can figure it out...oh wait, I forgot who the treasurer is.

 

[2ndGENAMT]

No, nobody gets a pass. The difference is AMFA and BK at NWA they ended up losing over 25% in pay and benefit cuts plus 90% of jobs. AMFA at UA ended up adding to the pay and benefit cuts plus more jobs (all but three lines of airframe overhaul and kept all engines) beyond what the IAM already gave up in BK.
 
The TWU at AA got an immediate 3% pay raise while in BK plus another 4.3%, plus equity totalling $25K per member, plus kept more lines of airframe overhaul than any airline regardless of BK, and kept most engines in-house. 36 months after DOS will be at parity with peer airlines.
 
No one gets a pass, it's just faced with similar circumstances...the TWU did far better.

"No, nobody gets a pass. The difference is AMFA and BK at NWA they ended up losing over 25% in pay and benefit cuts"

The TWU did this in 2003 without Bankruptcy!!!

"The TWU at AA got an immediate 3% pay raise while in BK plus another 4.3%, plus equity totalling $25K per member,"

Easy to do when you have the worst pay and benefits going in to Bankruptcy which is why some on here said we should vote down the LBFO. We could have done better IMO.

 

[700UW]

Hey O/S,
 
You do realize TUL is only protected for two years, once AA gets its outsourcing perfected you will see cuts.
 
On the US side CLT and PIT are both protected for the life of the CBA.
 
At US most shops are gone, that was in the second chapter 11, but overhaul is protected, 50% of billable hours must be done in-house, no line maintenance can be farmed out.
 
Also what the TWU negotiated is crazy, 35% of the total budget is enormous.
 
Hey does anyone know what the total maintenance budget is at AA?