TUL mechs

[Chuck Schalk]

Overspeed has proven himself once again just like the TWU to be a master manipulator and distort the facts to make the masses think the way they (TWU)  wants the members to think regardless of the truth or how it will affect the members down the road.  Just look at our concessions and how Overspeed (TWU)  got the members of tulsa to vote for them.  Was it facts?  was it in our best interest, was it industry leading contract, was it explained in full,  are their still open items from the contract unsettled?, did the members have an eduacted vote? or was it manipulation just like overspeed spews on this blog?
 
Time to put overspeed and the TWU to bed and sign an AMFA card and bring it to a vote!
 
AMFA NOW OR FOREVER HOLD YOUR PEACE

 

[Bob Owens]

 
MetalMover
 
To answer your questions? "NO" Eastern and PanAm were out of business. So getting time would be a no. AirCal guys got their time. It is what it is part of the industry which we work. You are again correct that seniority is all we have, that the companies and unions have not found ways to take away. Do I think TWA would of survived, NO. They would of gone like all the rest of the past carriers. So to get bought out was a good deal for the employees of TWA. But to say they are just lucky they have/had a job sounds just like a management type statement. That is just one reason our class and craft is where it is. The TWU members here at AA, have been the leaders in the downward spiral of our class and craft. Putting AA first just to say we work for the #1 airline. The TWU it self over the yrs has used the seniority of one group against the new hires.  ABC scale, 5&5, just go back in the old contract books and you will see just what the TWU has done to us over the yrs. 1991 & 1995 contracts.
 
The TWU has pitted us against them type of thinking in most. When we (all AMT's) should be working toward the same thing. Equal pay and benefits across the industry.
Pipe dream yes, but why have to start at bottom of pay scale each time we change companies? Days off and shift I agree the bottom if a new hire,  but a merger or acquisition it should be merged by occupational seniority. 
 
Lets hope that when it is all said and done the list of mechanics, in our class and craft which includes AMT's/Auto/Facilities/Utility/Parts washers/OSM's etc... get merged by title group in a fair way that will have a harmonious out come so as a group we can get back all the money and benefits the TWU negotiated away.  Just like some on the line and or in Tulsa feel their group is better, so we have the line vers O/H debate.
This as well keeps us at one another and only helps the company and TWU play us all.
 
Tulsa, the AA line guys and the USAirways guys (ALL) need to work together to remove the TWU get merged under one union and work toward a JCBA as fast as possible so that its NOT yrs like what is going on over at UAL with the CAL/UAL guys.   

So in other words you are advocating that if workers fight back they get stapled (start at the bottom like EAL) but if they roll over and give everything away and the people running the company decide to sell the company and pocket the value of their sacrifices that they get rewarded by being dovetailed?  Why would we advocate giving management the ability through their actions and decisions to manipulate seniority? 
 
Look at this scenario. 
 
Two mechanics start on the same day in 1975. One at EAL and one at TWA. 15 years later the EAL guy starts all over again at AA at the bottom after telling Frank Lorenzo to pound salt with his concessions, all airline workers benefit because by stopping Lorenzo the concessions train slowed down. Approximately 10 years later both mechanics have 25 years in the business, the Former EAL guy lost 15 years and only has 10 at AA when TWA, where workers repeatedly said yes to Ichann, bringing them to the lowest wage in the industry (thus putting downward pressure on all wages in the industry) with no pension, retiree medical etc, get bought out by AA. Due to the merger the TWA guys see a several thousand dollar a year increase in pay, on top of that you feel they should also get to bump out the EAL guys to the street?
 
This scenario is more valid than you may realize. In fact we could change it to the EAL guy hiring in in 1965 and the TWA guy in 1975 and still getting bumped out of a job at AA with a dovetail. Or even have the TWA guy starting in 1989 and bumping out in 1965 EAL guy at AA in the event of a Dovetail.Both ended up at companies they didn't start at. Both get screwed (maybe). One definitely gets screwed twice with a Dovetail. 
 
The fact is the overwhelming majority of TWA workers, much like USAIR workers welcomed the mergers, in both cases most of the AA workers were against the mergers. In both cases the other workers either saw or received a benefit to the merger while workers at AA saw ZERO benefit. 
 
Seniority is a Union right secured by contractual language. Unions should not allow the system to be used to encourage concessions. Did the TWA guys get screwed? Yes, but they screwed themselves by giving up their contract which included language that would have protected their seniority in a merger, they did this to facilitate the merger. They gave up the language to make it happen then they wanted us to honor the language that no longer existed. Unlike the EAL guys they still got to come over to a big increase in pay with their Vacation and sick banks intact, 100 % seniority in some station and 25% in others. That's what the arbitrator came up with. They could have said no and fought back but they didn't, instead they (their union) chose to give up their language. 
 
Maybe you should look a little closer at how seniority was handled at SWA/Air Tran. What the parties bring to the table matters, in the days when everyone pretty much got the same pay and benefits within pennies it was a much more strait forward process, both came as equals and are Dovetailed, but when one comes in with much less that changes things, that's how Kasher saw it, that is how it was determined at SWA as well. With US and AA we are both at the bottom of the industry, so I guess you can say we are equals. So Dovetail is appropriate, besides we are the larger group and I'm not wiling to give away contractual language protecting us in a merger to facilitate this merger. USAIRways is the carrier that's disappearing, not AA. 
 
 I've said before if SWA bought us and we went to their wages and benefits I would not complain about being stapled. Clearly we would benefit more from such a merger than the SWA guys would. 

 

[700UW]

Once again you show your true colors.
 
Your UNION, not the IAM begged Parker for the merger.
 
US is only disappearing in name only, its mostly US executives running the new AA.
 
And your AA disappeared on December 9th,
 
US brings nothing?
 
So do you want the IAM members stapled?
 
US brought the merger to fruition, not AA.
 
You are a piece of work.
 
Come out of the AMFA closet Bob.
 
And what AMFA did to the AirTran guys goes against all the whole union movement, just as what the TWU did the the former TWA employees.
 
I'm sure Lombordo will like your post when he goes to the Alliance meeting and his own officer his spewing the IAM members bring nothing to the merger and should be stapled.
 
Tough talk Bob, knowing that the Seniority has already been agreed too.
 
Riddle me this Bob, since AA was in Chapter 11 and US wasnt, and US took AA out of Chapter 11 with the merger, seems to me US brought lots to the merger, so should we staple all the TWU employees since you were in chapter 11 and US wasnt?

 

[Bob Owens]

Once again you show your true colors.
 
Your UNION, not the IAM begged Parker for the merger.
 
 

Jim Little made that decision, it was never brought to the members, and Jim Little has been removed. He was intent on destroying the Union and its members but now he is gone. Has there been a regime change at the IAM or are the same people who brought them to the bottom of the industry still in place? 
 
 
 

I'm sure Lombordo will like your post when he goes to the Alliance meeting and his own officer his spewing the IAM members bring nothing to the merger and should be stapled.
 
 

Apparently you cant read. Do you read contract language the same way? Where did I say they should be stapled, in fact I clearly said Dovetail is appropriate because we are both at the bottom of the industry. 
 
 

Riddle me this Bob, since AA was in Chapter 11 and US wasnt, and US took AA out of Chapter 11 with the merger, seems to me US brought lots to the merger, so should we staple all the TWU employees since you were in chapter 11 and US wasnt?
 

So I guess in your opinion the AA filing was morally legitimate? AA was not under any real financial hardship. They didn't seek protection from liquidation, they sought a "more competitive position", months before filing in the company paper they had stated that AA was healthy, they also were able to secure financing for the largest order of new aircraft EVER and had $5 billion in the bank. In court their lawyers revealed that the changes they wanted, (without USAIR), would allow the restructured company to earn around $2.8 billion a year in profits.  The Pilots and FA's, both of whom came out of this fairly well, wanted the old team gone, so did Little but while they campaigned for the mergers, which brought both unions thousands of new members, they did not give away the store to make it happen.Little gave away everything, much like the leadership of the IAM continues to do. (Did you guys at least get profit sharing?)  For every three dollars in concessions we gave, along with a bottom of the industry wages that your IAM saw, sought and sold as an "improvement" to their second contract after US exiied BK eight years ago, we got as much as what the pilots got for $1, and they still ranked high among their peers.
 
Brought lots? Like what?  Granted you guys have better Holidays, better language but you just signed a deal with the largest carrier in the country that's making tons of money for wages that we got stuck with through C-11. That's pretty pathetic. This is the second deal since leaving BK that leaves IAM mechanics at a distant bottom of the industry. 
 
At $2.8 Billion in profits AA would have been fine without US but US probably would not have done too well over the long term without AA, your own management team admitted as much. US was the one desperately looking for a partner for the last 10 years.  

 

[700UW]

Morality?
 
Really?
 
If you believe what you posted then you are beyond reality.
 

 
AMR’s financial health has been eroding for years. The company has posted annual losses three years in a row, including a $471 million loss last year. It has recorded a $982 million loss through the first nine months of this year.
 
Given the airline’s shaky financial picture, speculation about an AMR bankruptcy filing had started to increase this year, spooking investors. The company’s stock price has dropped 79 percent in 2011.
 
As of Sept. 30, AMR reported $24.7 billion in assets and $29.6 billion in debt, according to a filing with the federal bankruptcy court in Manhattan. The company added that it had about $4.1 billion in cash and short-term investments that could be used to pay vendors and suppliers.
 

Dont let the facts get in your way Bob.

 

[Bob Owens]

Morality?
 
Really?
 
If you believe what you posted then you are beyond reality.
 
Dont let the facts get in your way Bob.

I won't, when you have facts to offer, not the spin either.
 
What you cited were undated quotes, not necessarily facts. 
 
They were still better off than US and it was US that sought the merger. AA stated on court that without US they would be so profitable that profit sharing would restore all the concessions they were seeking from labor. 
 
The fact is that AA went into BK after announcing not only the largest Aircraft order in history, but financing for it, along with nearly $5 billion in cash.
 
The fact is that the contract proposal on the table before they filed contained a cost out that indicated that they expected to earn at least $250 million a year without filing for C-11. 
 
The fact is that US had been desperately seeking a merger partner for years because of all the carriers that had already gone through BK, US remained the least competitive despite having gained greater concessions in BK than either UAL or DAL. 
 
The fact that you would cite the AA C-11 filing, which is perhaps one of the greatest frauds ever perpetrated, where all its stakeholders. EXCEPT LABOR, were made 100% whole, as some sort of proof that AA needed US just goes to show how far against the good of workers you will go to defend your IAM. it shows how your priorities and loyalty towards business unionism has twisted your brain. 

 

[Overspeed]

 
Wrong - there were no aircraft overhauls being performed in SFO at the time of the 2003 CBA ratification.

 
But there were mods being performed and the language protected mod/overhaul work in the SFO base which still stands today under the IBT.
 
If AMFA was so good at UA why did they get booted after such a short time?

 

[Overspeed]

Why do you even bother to prove this notorious loser wrong time after time when he apparently does not care about the truth. We all know he is a liar and is only concerned about the TWU no matter how many lies he has to post to make him and the TWU look good. You proved him wrong with facts and Bob Owens did the same but yet he persists. I think he does it for the attention.

 
This proves nothing. The fact is during the entire AMFA drive that was underway at UA, AMFA bad mouthed the IAM as doing a terrible job. AMFA got to go to the table in 2005 and did what? Nothing! In fact they did worse. Therefore AMFA got booted. You say the TWU Int'l rolled on the membership yet when OV says the members were scared of BK court and that was the best they could do you claim AMFA is awesome. Pull your head out of the sand.

 

[1airborne]

This is the only FACT I know, even with record profits SWA mangement is using all the BK airline wages to tell the swa negotiating comittee we won't give you a raise of your hourly wage only a bonus based on performance. They say we need to "let the rest of the industry catch up to our salary."
 
So get with it!
 
1airborne

 

[Overspeed]

 
My employer paid my unemployment . You are showing your ignorance..... again. 
 

 
Isn't UI a social program funded by all tax payers including employers?

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

I post facts all the time...

I posted the very high percentage of new HIV infections...
 
...I don't make threats and ask others to do my fighting for me. 
 
You are showing your ignorance..... again. 
 
Feel free to sue me, prick.

Ok then.

 

[700UW]

Apparently you do.
 
So you claim. I don't know if that is true or not. I do know I have proven YOU are a liar more than once.
 
I post facts all the time. The liberal left tends to filter out what they don't want to hear. I posted the very high percentage of new HIV infections being attributed to Homosexual males, the left didn't want to hear that so they ignored it. That was a documented FACT. Just one example.
 
Except I don't make threats and ask others to do my fighting for me. 
 
You try to present yourself as a go to expert. Even though half the people on here know you are a blowhard. Once you claim knowledge and make declarations you make yourself a target.
 
What the hell do you know about Tulsa anyway? I worked there for 12 years. Have you ever even seen the base?
 
My employer paid my unemployment . You are showing your ignorance..... again. 
 
Feel free to sue me, prick.

This has what to do with the topic?
 
Here is the topic, is it too hard for you to understand it?
 
 

Haven't heard much about the 400 mechanics at TUL that was going to be laid off. Last I heard TUL went to 7 day coverage and the 400 stay working at AA.

Haven't heard anything about the AFW/TAESL mechs, if AA is going to keep TAESL open or pull out of that, any word?

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

 
Isn't UI a social program funded by all tax payers including employers?

No. It is 100% employer paid except for 3 states. I don't live in one of those states.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

This has what to do with the topic?
 
Here is the topic, is it too hard for you to understand it?

Again, you don't know anything about Tulsa. Who the hell are you to give an opinion about it?
 
700UW the self appointed expert on everything......

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

 
This proves nothing. The fact is during the entire AMFA drive that was underway at UA, AMFA bad mouthed the IAM as doing a terrible job. AMFA got to go to the table in 2005 and did what? Nothing! In fact they did worse. Therefore AMFA got booted. You say the TWU Int'l rolled on the membership yet when OV says the members were scared of BK court and that was the best they could do you claim AMFA is awesome. Pull your head out of the sand.

 
What it proves is that you're a liar, and that when confronted with facts that disprove your obvious falsehoods, you don't have a shred of integrity to admit you lied.
 
 

 
.... UA (gave in to mgmt's demands to outsource almost all airframe overhaul and blame the IAM), ....

 

 
.... The truth is that the IAM AMTs voted down the concessions deal at UAL. The deal that was passed under AMFA was actually the original IAM deal with more concessions. ....

 
These are your original two statements concerning AMFA at UAL. Both are complete and utter lies.