To the West pilots

[EastUS]

"The white elephant was totally missed. While folks pi ss in the snow and discuss what ALPA can and can’t do.....
then clearly ALPA is either incompetent or complicit."

I'm thinking both incompetent and complicit.

 

[ChrisUS]

[
For the record I could care less if this airline survives or fails if that list stands. And there are plenty of pilots that feel this way.

OH YES!!! MUCH better to be unemployed than lower in seniority! Give up ALL your seniority and PRAY to get a job somewhere else.

Congratulations, this is the dumbest thing I have EVER read on here. Talking out if the wrong set of cheeks here bud.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Pilot’s comments are accurate.

ALPA East has told the company to stay out of union issues and I understand they are willing to do so. In fact, the company has just posted a CBS message with an direct line phone numnber to pilot payroll, which is helping the East pilots stop their automatic dues check off or payroll deduction for ALPA dues.

Furthermore, the East ALPA contract is cheaper than the West and there is a minimum fleet count requirement for both sides in the Transition Agreement, which offers some “whip sawâ€￾ protection. The East has a much higher RASM than the West, PHX and LAS are leisure markets, and there is more revenue on the East.

The East pilots have the greatest amount of solidarity I have ever seen, the MEC has a great plan that is being further defined, and I believe the Nicolau Award will never be implemented.

Thus, when would now be a good time for the two pilot groups to use this award, but create fences that both parties could live by? Then the combined pilot group could negotiate a joint contract and merge, otherwise, this fight could last another decade with a toxic relationship forever.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[PA18]

Just a simple question - would you still feel this way after a year or two of watching all the new airplanes and growth go to the West while East returned planes and furloughed?

Don't think it's a possibility? I assure you it is.....

Jim

Jim,

Even if Parker had no intention of actually doing that, just the mere threat of such an action would be enough to make a majority of the East pilots go weak in the knees.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Amen. I am east as well, and south of the 517.

Give it up, guys... the game has changed. Sadly, gone are the days of over 8 hours actual equals sixteen hours off. Gone is the pension of yore. Gone is DOH.

Look at the problem... ALPA.

ALPA is the companys' b*tch, and if you want proof, look at the givebacks starting with around 1992... across all carriers.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I agree. The problem is ALPA. But there's a bit more to the story.

ALPA went along with the bottom-feeder contracts that AWA negotiated and held on to for so long. If the AWA pilots had the cojones to bring themselves up to the neighborhood of industry standard over their 20+ years of existence, none of us would be having this discussion now. And ALPA enabled their bottom-feeder contracts for so long, the management of all carriers felt it was their mission in life to drag all pilots down to their level.

And they succeeded.

And now everyone is reaping the inevitable bitter fruits of that effort.

 

[PA18]

My questions is this.....

The company did not advocate the seniority issue, the union did. The company did not come up with this solution, an arbitrator did. Why would your frustrations with your UNION and the ARBITRATOR be taken out on your fellow employees and our customers (ie, working by the book, etc)? Is there a way for you to channel your frustrations to the appropriate entity?

MMY,

Although the pilot seniority issue is the hot topic du jour, I would suggest that the other employees from Parker on down should be much more concerned about the operation as a whole.

The "suits" should come out from the shelter of the Sandcastle and ride around on the East system for a couple of days.

Hang around the gates at DCA and PHL and see how utterly frustrated the understaffed, overworked agents are with your new-and-improved Heathkit reservation system; and how that frustration manifests itself in the agents being curt with the paying customers.

Ask the US Shuttle agents how many big corporate accounts have been lost recently because a long-time customer can't show up an hour earlier than his or her reserved flight and just jump on the earlier one, because the 286 processor at the gate won't allow it. Ask how the Shuttle loads have been. Then go fly a leg on the Delta Shuttle, and take the time to look up from the free newspaper or magazine that carrier provides its best customers, and observe how much better the service is.

And, by all means, spend a weekend in the PHL ramp tower, and watch just how the East operation runs with "military precision".

If the East pilots were to decide to slow down, it would hardly be noticed. Most delays -- and most customer complaints -- are created by circumstances well out of the pilots' hands.

What the pilot seniority/contract situation will do is give Tempe another means of deflecting blame for their continued, gross incompetence when the summer meltdown really hits.

All Parker has to do is tell one of his lap-dog reporters that the pilots are slowing down or calling in sick, and the clueless, irresponsible media will take it and run with it.

After all, "Pilot Sickout" makes a much better headline than "Management Incompetent"

 

[BoeingBoy]

ALPA went along with the bottom-feeder contracts that AWA negotiated and held on to for so long. If the AWA pilots had the cojones to bring themselves up to the neighborhood of industry standard over their 20+ years of existence, none of us would be having this discussion now. And ALPA enabled their bottom-feeder contracts for so long, the management of all carriers felt it was their mission in life to drag all pilots down to their level.

There's still more to the story.

As a startup carrier in the early 80's, were HP's contracts "bottom feeder" compared to the other 80's startups? Or even WN at that time?

Then came the early 90's BK. East pilots are experts at getting big raises during BK, right? How could those spineless HP pilots fail to do the same?

Of course, 911 and it's aftermath came along. I remember the big raises that the East pilots had the cajones to negotiate in that environment. Why didn't those sissy's at HP do the same, huh?

Finally, the merger aborted the West pilot's section 6 negotiations.

Every 6-10 years of HP's existence, something came along that made it almost impossible to drastically improve the West pilot's contract. But, yeah, they're spineless (incompetent, push-overs, whatever).

What's the East pilot's excuse for having an even lower cost contract. Oh, that's right - it's ALPA's fault. How well I remember that phone call from Woerth begging me to vote for the various concessions. I hung up on him, but apparently the majority of East pilots were willing to listen and comply with Woerth's wishes just so they could later blame someone else for their plight....

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

I see your point, Jim, and I will gladly acknowledge that my post has a sprinkling of hyperbole as soon as the west acknowledges the exaggerated claims of "we saved you" and "if not for us, you would not even have a job."

 

[ussnark]

I was wondering if someone would bring this up. I would almost bet this is going to happen.

Why ever would a "sane" corporation go with the most expensive "solution"? Just as a show of faith to one set of employees? I can imagine at least one set of shareholders who might take exception to such a decision.

I also imagine that once an east coast "downsizing" starts, the consequences will be expensive in many ways for Tempe, even expensive enough to close the doors. I heard a major ALPA carrier once operated, to good effect, for a bit at either 20,000 or at 40,000 with the gear down (747s fly just great at 40,000 with the gear down). Costs skyrocketed and with our inflated fuel costs, US could be hamstrung for decades.

Personally, I believe we can send a proper message just by doing (federally mandated - FAR required) writeups and making certain there is follow up, judging from the inferior maintenance I've seen on both east and west aircraft (not the fault of individual mechs.)

If there is enough interest, I would happily set up an email address, database and display data on a web page, with followup, for any maintenance items. Perhaps a trend "could be" forwarded to the FAA since our "mx" central seems unable to accomplish basic mx activities. With a publically accessible web page (foreign based - good luck shutting it down) both pilots and passengers could then follow repairs and determine whether they actually wish to fly such and such an aircraft.

Just sayin'

 

[BoeingBoy]

as soon as the west acknowledges the exaggerated claims of "we saved you" and "if not for us, you would not even have a job."

Which is just as foolish in my mind, though not for some of the reasons given to rebut that argument.....

Jim

 

[philly rocks]

Pit hub (not to mention we started British in Pit, Lga hub, Fll hub, Metro Jet, Mid Atlantic, Republic, the list goes on and on and on and on with failures. What is it? THEY just don't get it ! Lots of turnovers in CEO's, who run with the money. These guys are either severely ADHD or like we say, "The Stepford Family". Earth to Tempe, "do you hear us"?