US Pilot Labor Thread, Aug 25th-31th

[EastUS]

Here's the irony: by the time they see anything...(if ever) the East attrition will make it moot, but they'll be bankrupt from litigating.

The hands are already in the cookie jar...and they're gonna sue to get the cookie NOW...and they'll spend every penny to do it.

when they could have the whole jar in so many years...

Indeed sir. The entire scenario's proved mind-boggling to me from the very onset of the first post-nic, west "Booyooshaka!!"..and the east response of "umm..guys, gals...this nic thing's not going to really work"....."can we talk?"..West = "It's Final and Binding!"...."It's OVER. Get used to it!"...and countless variations on: Whooopeee!!..We "Won"/You should have reverently kissed our tails prior to arbitration!!/"We saved you!"/and thusly = You OWE us everything/etc...puke and repeat as needed.

I'd honestly like to finally know what it is they believe they'll ever gain from all this "All Out Warfare"...and just when "St Nic is coming to town" per their schedule. I've little doubt that litigation will be attempted., to say the least. I merely wonder as to how they honestly imagine all this playing out over time....
I guess that it'll have to run it's course until/unless enough west money's been spent, and insufficient stomache acid's left in their sytems to continue....or some final ruling's handed down many years hence.....It's seriously mind boggling to me all around.

 

[EastUS]

The flight attendants' merger policy was DOH. No argument there. That's why it was easy for them.

Agreed...and no one's playing about at any "All Out Warfare" within the FA's..........

 

[prechilill]

I'd honestly like to finally know what it is they believe they'll ever gain from all this "All Out Warfare"...and just when "St Nic is coming to town" per their schedule. I've little doubt that litigation will be attempted., to say the least. I merely wonder as to how they honestly imagine all this playing out over time....
I guess that it'll have to run it's course until/unless enough west money's been spent, and insufficient stomache acid's left in their sytems to continue....or some final ruling's handed down many years hence.....It's seriously mind boggling to me all around.

I am putting my money on the integrity of the courts, arbitration and the law. With you, Bradford, Seham and Jack Stephan. We'll see who was right in a few months.

 

[EastUS]

We'll see who was right in a few months.

Sure....Umm..whatever you say.....

Seriously though; I can at least see where your thinking's coming from = You figure this to be something to be speedilly resolved. Good luck with maintaining that fantasy.

PS: As per the integrity of the courts...This may come as a complete shock to you...but....there's actually no known court protocol therein that's inherently biased against evil easties...Just a thought.

 

[prechilill]

5. As a former Piedmont (original) hire, I must say I was disappointed in the result of arbitrator Kagel's decision. However, it was logically presented and based on decades of precedent. The Piedmont pilots gave it their best shot, and we lost. No one sent poop to Kagel, the USAir MEC office, or ALPA national. We continued to do our jobs as professionals and the whining and any animosity lasted (for 99.99%) for a few weeks, then we moved on.

Perhaps you should heed your own words here. It seems (deleted by moderator) your are regressing in your civility.

 

[EastUS]

It seems in your old age your are regressing in your civility.

I couldn't resist = What an utterly perfect example of "civility" That's right up there with all the self-ascribed "INTEGRITY"...Just too, too funny.....

FYI: "then we moved on." has been the case since April...for the majority of the pilots anyway....

 

[luvthe9]

If we could only turn all this anger toward the company we might be able to have and industry leading contract.

 

[Phoenix]

...., Bradford, Seham and Jack Stephan. ...

Is this like a game? Are we 'sposed to guess which one in the group doesn't match the others?

 

[nycbusdriver]

I am putting my money on the integrity of the courts, arbitration and the law. With you, Bradford, Seham and Jack Stephan. We'll see who was right in a few months.

I am very happy with letting the courts decide if you insist.

But, "We'll see who was right in a few months"? You're joking, right?

Well, maybe not. The only civil cases that are decided quickly in federal courts are the ones which the judge decides to dismiss quickly. That will probably be the case.

But if the "stealth" lawsuit that is supposed to have us trembling in fear actually gets filed AND gets to trial, it will be YEARS before it is settles. The docket of civil cases in federal courts are backlogged for years, and yours goes to the bottom of the pile (again...if it even gets that far.)

 

[Mtnman928]

I am very happy with letting the courts decide if you insist.

But, "We'll see who was right in a few months"? You're joking, right?

Well, maybe not. The only civil cases that are decided quickly in federal courts are the ones which the judge decides to dismiss quickly. That will probably be the case.

But if the "stealth" lawsuit that is supposed to have us trembling in fear actually gets filed AND gets to trial, it will be YEARS before it is settles. The docket of civil cases in federal courts are backlogged for years, and yours goes to the bottom of the pile (again...if it even gets that far.)

Didn't Ol 320 pilot or whatever his name was always say something to the effect that legal action was going to be taken against the RC4. Last I heard nothing has happened on that front. Haven't heard from him in awhile so I doubt we'll get any updates on said action.

BTW, I also doubt Stephan would be included in any of the things the other gents are associated with.

MM

 

[nycbusdriver]

Didn't Ol 320 pilot or whatever his name was always say something to the effect that legal action was going to be taken against the RC4. Last I heard nothing has happened on that front. Haven't heard from him in awhile so I doubt we'll get any updates on said action.

BTW, I also doubt Stephan would be included in any of the things the other gents are associated with.

MM

Getting fired for some of his internet posting has had a damping effect on Ol' 320. (ALPA got him his job back, but spending a month or two in limbo without a paycheck is sobering, nonetheless.)

Lot's of folks threaten legal action when posting on these boards. If ever threat came to fruition, there wouldn't be enough lawyers to handle the load!

 

[usabusdriver]

Well, I'd say that the judge will consider Rakestraw, in that a previously "confirmed" and "implemented"(via contract) seniority list cannot be re-arranged....(ergo, our Empire friends)...the precedence has already been set...so what what will remain (IMO) is the combining of two EXISTING and IMPLEMENTED (via contract) DOH lists....under a combined DOH list...IMPLEMENTED with a new contract...

Mach,

It seems the argument has shifted and is veering towards arguing both sides of a case now.

Seham sited, as precedence for manipulating an established seniority list, Rakestraw v United, in the organizing phase of usapa as the vehicle to a DOH seniority list post Nic.

Now when the issue of DOH being uniformly applied to the “newâ€￾ list arises, Rakestraw is sited, (which, by the way, the plaintiff lost on appeal and the list was adjusted) as preventing the uniform application of DOH to the "new" seniority list.

Please explain or clarify. Thanks

 

[machtuck]

Im not spending all day here today...but I'll try to clarify what my point was.

Rakestraw decision provides that a confirmed/codified list cannot be re-ordered by a union once in effect. So, the Empire pilots can't be re-ordered on the East list since several contracts have locked them in where they are. (My point for citing Rakestraw...precedence in re-arranging them)


This is going to be (IMO) the wests play against DOH with the USAPA driven list...that Empire guys aren't DOH....so why should THEY be...

My answer is, Rakestraw locks Empire guys in from previously EXECUTED contracts...NIC has no such contract...AND USAPA can apply different C&BL's than ALPA has...and IMO...isn't obligated to ALPA's negotiations...or past practices/precedents...as the West is going to argue.

Two things are problematic for the West...no contract with NIC...and a new union with it's own and different C&BL's.

It's just my opinion...but I may not be alone in that thinking.

 

[tazz]

Im not spending all day here today...but I'll try to clarify what my point was.

Rakestraw decision provides that a confirmed/codified list cannot be re-ordered by a union once in effect. So, the Empire pilots can't be re-ordered on the East list since several contracts have locked them in where they are. (My point for citing Rakestraw...precedence in re-arranging them)


This is going to be (IMO) the wests play against DOH with the USAPA driven list...that Empire guys aren't DOH....so why should THEY be...

My answer is, Rakestraw locks Empire guys in from previously EXECUTED contracts...NIC has no such contract...AND USAPA can apply different C&BL's than ALPA has...and IMO...isn't obligated to ALPA's negotiations...or past practices/precedents...as the West is going to argue.

Two things are problematic for the West...no contract with NIC...and a new union with it's own and different C&BL's.

It's just my opinion...but I may not be alone in that thinking.

You aren't alone in your thinking but I and many others out west are willing to bet that you're wrong. Just as the east is willing to throw themselves on their swords over DOH, so are we on the west to defend the expensive and time consuming arbitrator's decision. Each side believes it is right. The courts will decide.

 

[KTM300]

Im not spending all day here today...but I'll try to clarify what my point was.

Rakestraw decision provides that a confirmed/codified list cannot be re-ordered by a union once in effect. So, the Empire pilots can't be re-ordered on the East list since several contracts have locked them in where they are. (My point for citing Rakestraw...precedence in re-arranging them)


This is going to be (IMO) the wests play against DOH with the USAPA driven list...that Empire guys aren't DOH....so why should THEY be...

My answer is, Rakestraw locks Empire guys in from previously EXECUTED contracts...NIC has no such contract...AND USAPA can apply different C&BL's than ALPA has...and IMO...isn't obligated to ALPA's negotiations...or past practices/precedents...as the West is going to argue.

Two things are problematic for the West...no contract with NIC...and a new union with it's own and different C&BL's.

It's just my opinion...but I may not be alone in that thinking.

I for one have begun to except the fate of the NIC award, but You and some of your friends are missing the point...The true test for the east to prove their position on a DOH list for all is to have a vote. Didn't USAPA claim itself as a pilots union. If the east pilots believe so strongly in DOH, the USAPA constitution allows the pilots to vote on just this type of contradition. Rakestraw has nothing to do with what this pilot group decides amongst themselves. Do you believe in principles? If the Empire pilots have a DOH that is out of sequence on the seniority list, rather than bantering about it on this forum, wouldn't you want to vote to fix that inconsistency?