To the West pilots

[traderjake]

Explain it to the wife and kids.

"Honey, we're going to lose the house because I feeled cheated. Kids, no college for you."

 

[ilg30/7]

Explain it to the wife and kids.

"Honey, we're going to lose the house because I feeled cheated. Kids, no college for you."

You know as well as I that is a scenario everybody in the East has contemplated at one time or another.

That's the thing about being forced to the edge 1000 times: the abyss ceases to be a scary place. When you've watched thousands of your collegues clean out their lockers, it doesn't seem so unrealistic to imagine that you will be doing the same one day.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Wouldnt it be less costlly for east to do the flying under its current ontract?

While the East is said (by Kirby/Parker) to have a "slightly" less expensive contract, all that means is that if the West pilots operated under the East contract their cost would be lower and if the East operated under the West contract their costs would go up.

You have to remember that almost every East active pilot is at TOS (and many furloughees will be near it when they return) - not true with the West. Even with lower pay rates, being at TOS could make the average East pilot more expensive per hour. That would mean that DC plan payments would be higher for the average East pilot. The widebodies pay more than any rate on the West side and (again) almost every pilot flying them is at TOS. East gets less max vacation, but with all the longevity how much vacation does the average East pilot get compared to the average West pilot? East is an older group - phasing them out could lower the company's average employee age and possibly reduce medical payments. Etc, etc, etc.

That's why I've pointed out several time that a lower cost contract isn't necessarily the same as lower cost.

Since there's probably no one outside HQ that knows which pilot group is really less costly, here's a tidbit from the 1st quarter report - East mainline labor cost is just over 3 cents per ASM while West mainline labor cost is just under 2.5 cents per ASM. So as a division, East is more expensive.

Jim

 

[b737fo]

Gentlemen:

Take this to heart from a 30 year guy who's been through a few mergers, bankruptcies, pension loss, in house union bloodlettings, threatened liquidations, being "saved" by you guys, BA, GE Capital, Bronner, Wolf, and others.

You are in for a rude awakening.

In my 30 years I've NEVER seen this group more unified or pissed off than now. I can assure you, regardless of your opinions or legal pontificating, this seniority list will not stand, one way or another, if this company is to be merged.

I'm not opining here. I'm stating a fact. Not one pilot on the East side is going to allow this nonsense.

Regardless of where he sits on the seniority list.

Regardless of what ALPA policy is.

And regardless of what Parker may or may not do.

Ain't gonna happen boys. If you think it is you just don't understand seniority and what it means.

Hopefully some cool heads will prevail but if not there are going to be ramifications that will spell the end of this airline.

And I'm tellin you fellas this isn't a threat. This is going to happen.

pilot

Well I guess I am in for my rude awakening because I am not going to be bullied into discussions with a group that threatens taking my union from me or that threatens to kill the airline I work for. Both sides threw away the opportunity to bridge the gaps when the arbitraitor gave us one last shot to come together and nothing happened. It is too bad that we can't stand together and fight to get a joint agreement that would benefit all but you need to do what will ever make you happy I guess and if that means you destroy this airline than that is sad to me and a lot of other employees who do not have a dog in this fight.

 

[Groucho]

Who knows where the costs are lower or higher. It's simple the yields are much higher in the East than the West and the East infrastructure is already in place.

The money to be made is in the east.

 

[BoeingBoy]

and the East infrastructure is already in place.

yes - just like the MDA infrastructure, the PIT Res infrastructure, the PIT hub infrastructure, the CCY infrastructure, the FLL mini-hub infrastructure, etc.

Having the infrastructure in place saved every one of them, didn't it.

All I'm saying is don't blindly follow Custer - he might be going to the Little Big Horn.

Jim

 

[Junebug172]

Gentlemen:

Take this to heart from a 30 year guy who's been through a few mergers, bankruptcies, pension loss, in house union bloodlettings, threatened liquidations, being "saved" by you guys, BA, GE Capital, Bronner, Wolf, and others.

You are in for a rude awakening.

In my 30 years I've NEVER seen this group more unified or pissed off than now. I can assure you, regardless of your opinions or legal pontificating, this seniority list will not stand, one way or another, if this company is to be merged.

I'm not opining here. I'm stating a fact. Not one pilot on the East side is going to allow this nonsense.

Regardless of where he sits on the seniority list.

Regardless of what ALPA policy is.

And regardless of what Parker may or may not do.

Ain't gonna happen boys. If you think it is you just don't understand seniority and what it means.

Hopefully some cool heads will prevail but if not there are going to be ramifications that will spell the end of this airline.

And I'm tellin you fellas this isn't a threat. This is going to happen.

pilot

No malice or anger there?

 

[phasersonstun2]

"Not one pilot on the East side is going to allow this nonsense."

pilot

You don't speak for me.

It's because of fools like you that we did not get credit for attrition due to retirements.

Amen. I am east as well, and south of the 517.

Give it up, guys... the game has changed. Sadly, gone are the days of over 8 hours actual equals sixteen hours off. Gone is the pension of yore. Gone is DOH.

Look at the problem... ALPA.

ALPA is the companys' b*tch, and if you want proof, look at the givebacks starting with around 1992... across all carriers.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[EastUS]

"Just a simple question - would you still feel this way after a year or two of watching all the new airplanes and growth go to the West while East returned planes and furloughed?

Don't think it's a possibility? I assure you it is....."

You "assure" us...Ummm....I'm sorry...I'm trying to get my breath back. Seems far more likely Doug & Company would be predisposed towards tossing the flying out to the cheaper labor force=east. Good thing that I have your Assurance, or I'd think that last far more likely. Ummm..would you please just forward the next winning powerball numbers?

 

[EastUS]

"EXPLAIN TO THEM THAT SINCE YOU ARE UNREASONABLE SELFISH ASSES THEY CAN'T PAY THE MORTGAGE NEXT MONTH!! Go ahead pilot TELL'EM!!!"

Ummm...look around at those shiny stripes, without much in the way of a tear, sweat, or wear on them...that you see everyday...that are insistent upon climbing at any cost/over anyone's back....and ask them exactly that.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You "assure" us...Ummm

Maybe if you read what I wrote instead of giving a kneejerk response.....

Absolutely, I assure you that there is a POSSIBILITY that the growth could go to the West pilots if operations remain separate. If you want to pretend that a lower cost contract must equal lower cost, don't let me disturb your fairy tale.

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

Maybe if you read what I wrote instead of giving a kneejerk response.....

Absolutely, I assure you that there is a POSSIBILITY that the growth could go to the West pilots if operations remain separate. If you want to pretend that a lower cost contract must equal lower cost, don't let me disturb your fairy tale.

Jim

It would be a hell of a lot cheaper to dump the furloughs by sending out the "resign or return" letters. (Which they have done. The latest recall is to Group 2 only, which we cannot pass on if the pilot junior to us has resigned.) A large majority will probably resign.

Hiring off the street could happen in a few months. Newhires on the East contract are cheaper than newhires on the West.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Hiring off the street could happen in a few months. Newhires on the East contract are cheaper than newhires on the West.

How long would that take to lower the average East "active" longevity enough to even the pay rates (not pay scales) out? And would not new hires lower costs on whichever side they were hired at, although the East's bottom rate is less? Could not the company employ the same scheme with West?

Jim

 

[EastUS]

[quote name='BoeingBoy' date='May 12 2007, 09:15 PM'
"Absolutely, I assure you that there is a POSSIBILITY that the growth could go to the West pilots if operations remain separate. If you want to pretend that a lower cost contract must equal lower cost, don't let me disturb your fairy tale."

Hmm..some quip about "disturb your fairy tale" sounds a tad bit "knee jerk" to me as well. It's possible that all future flying could go to the AWA side...I'm not the least bit concerned that such an absurdly unlikely event will actually occur...It's fully possible that a dinosaur-killer asteroid may strike within the month. The only warrantly any living people have about the future is that it's unknown...and will always be at least somewhat different than any/all imagine. You might wish to pass that on to the "career expectations" crowd.

 

[Phoenix]

How long would that take to lower the average East "active" longevity enough to even the pay rates (not pay scales) out? And would not new hires lower costs on whichever side they were hired at, although the East's bottom rate is less? Could not the company employ the same scheme with West?

Jim

The white elephant was totally missed. While folks pi ss in the snow and discuss what ALPA can and can’t do..

the company has likely figured out how to get 1500 ALAP pilots to resign rather than accept recall to ALPA mainline jobs (and more to the point of irony.. as a result of LOA93 that a majority of ALPA pilots voted to accept), and if the company has been able to orchestrate this even after tossing out the retirees pension, then clearly ALPA is either incompetent or complicit.

The company is capable of pillaging the unions with a great deal of finesse, while keeping the natives calm enough to avoid revolt.

It remains to be seen if they, and ALPA, can maintain that finesse when their balancing act seems to be disrupted by the events of late.