US Pilot Labor Thread, Aug 25th-31th

[prechilill]

It is hard to keep all of your contradictions straight, but what we have learned these past two days is:

1. There is no DOH master list held by USAPA as so many on here may claim
2. The company has not been presented a DOH list five months into this union experiment, even though DOH was the reason USAPA was created
3. There are two lists, two contracts and two separate pilot groups flying separate equipment so we are not one pilot group as some on here claim
4. The policy of DOH by USAPA only applies to America West pilots (if you are an Empire pilot you are out of luck)
5. Piedmont pilots, who were opposed to DOH with both the Empire and USAir mergers, now embrace DOH. (The word hypocrite comes to mind here)

Wow. And you all wonder why we on the west don't trust anything you little devils say or promise.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

It is hard to keep all of your contradictions straight, but what we have learned these past two days is:

1. There is no DOH master list held by USAPA as so many on here may claim
2. The company has not been presented a DOH list five months into this union experiment, even though DOH was the reason USAPA was created
3. There are two lists, two contracts and two separate pilot groups flying separate equipment so we are not one pilot group as some on here claim
4. The policy of DOH by USAPA only applies to America West pilots (if you are an Empire pilot you are out of luck)
5. Piedmont pilots, who were opposed to DOH with both the Empire and USAir mergers, now embrace DOH. (The word hypocrite comes to mind here)

Wow. And you all wonder why we on the west don't trust anything you little devils say or promise.

Same old, same old...

Keep trying to convince yourself. To paraphrase Barack Obama, YOU "Just don't get it".

After watching the PHX meeting, it's no wonder the company thinks they're dealing with a bunch of fools. They apparently are. How many times does one have to have something explained to them before they understand? Apparently, some never will.

 

[prechilill]

it's no wonder the company thinks they're dealing with a bunch of fools. They apparently are.

So you believe America West pilots are a bunch of fools?

 

[machtuck]

So you believe America West pilots are a bunch of fools?

....chili...you're doing "it" again

the "circles"...always with the circles.
(hint: you cant catch your tail...)

 

[SegmentKing]

emotions are obviously overriding intelligence for our coworkers in Phoenix.

I love how they spent so much time dealing with the "6" going back east. Its called recall rights.

If any of you in PHX bump into these "6", ask them how many times they've been furloughed. Ask them what it was like the first time, the second time, then the third time, and now I believe this makes four.

then ask their original DOH.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

So you believe America West pilots are a bunch of fools?

I'm guessing that's a rhetorical question.

 

[nycbusdriver]

It is hard to keep all of your contradictions straight, but what we have learned these past two days is:

1. There is no DOH master list held by USAPA as so many on here may claim
2. The company has not been presented a DOH list five months into this union experiment, even though DOH was the reason USAPA was created
3. There are two lists, two contracts and two separate pilot groups flying separate equipment so we are not one pilot group as some on here claim
4. The policy of DOH by USAPA only applies to America West pilots (if you are an Empire pilot you are out of luck)
5. Piedmont pilots, who were opposed to DOH with both the Empire and USAir mergers, now embrace DOH. (The word hypocrite comes to mind here)

Wow. And you all wonder why we on the west don't trust anything you little devils say or promise.

1. Who claimed that? Who knows what USAPA has. The seniority list will be negotiated at the proper time. Negotiations are a process and everything can't be done at once. They do it in sections. When the "Seniority Section" is under investigation, we will all find out exactly what USAPA will bring to the table.

2. See answer number one. Everything can't happen at once. Section by section the contract will be worked out. No one ever said that the seniority section would be first up.

3. We are separate in the sense that legal restrictions keep some aspects from being combined at this time. Doug Parker and Al Hemenway tried to explain that to the superbly dense bunch at the PHX Pilot Crew News session last week. I am sure their position is totally lost on you, but most pilots, east and west, understand this.

4. There are no Empire pilots. There are no Trump Shuttle pilots. There a re no Mohawk pilot. There are no Piedmont (original) pilots. There are no America West pilots. There are only USAirways pilots who are on the east seniority list, and there are USAirways pilots who are on the west seniority list. That will change in due course to where there are only USAirways pilots on the seniority list.

5. As a former Piedmont (original) hire, I must say I was disappointed in the result of arbitrator Kagel's decision. However, it was logically presented and based on decades of precedent. The Piedmont pilots gave it their best shot, and we lost. No one sent poop to Kagel, the USAir MEC office, or ALPA national. We continued to do our jobs as professionals and the whining and any animosity lasted (for 99.99%) for a few weeks, then we moved on.

So you believe America West pilots are a bunch of fools?

I absolutely do not believe that the former America West pilots are a bunch of fools. I sincerely believe that some of you are.

 

[Megasnoop]

It is hard to keep all of your contradictions straight, but what we have learned these past two days is:

1. There is no DOH master list held by USAPA as so many on here may claim

USAPA has a list all right. I hope they hold it close to the vest and use it, how did Fruend put it? AS A BARGAINING POSITION. It will be DOH. Fences? With no input from the West and not being mind readers, I guess we'll handle fences any way we want. 10-year fence on the 330 works for me.

2. The company has not been presented a DOH list five months into this union experiment, even though DOH was the reason USAPA was created

4 months, 1 week, if your counting. It took ALPO 7 months to present the NIC to the company. Remember, the list you say was binding? Now Team Parker says its negotiable. Why they take so long? ALPO went to Parker hat in hand. No negotiations there. Didnt your attorney say it was negotiable?

3. There are two lists, two contracts and two separate pilot groups flying separate equipment so we are not one pilot group as some on here claim

the TA and Parker in Tuesday's Training Center meeting, say there 3 lists. East list, West list, and new-hire list. But we're all represented by only 1 union, just like before the USAPA election.

4. The policy of DOH by USAPA only applies to America West pilots (if you are an Empire pilot you are out of luck)

Half right, chil. DOH policy also applies to East pilots. In 1992 Rakestraw (where an attempt to reorder an operating seniority list failed) put an end to Empire hopes to reirder the operating list.

5. Piedmont pilots, who were opposed to DOH with both the Empire and USAir mergers, now embrace DOH. (The word hypocrite comes to mind here)

Spot on. But dont think youre going to stir up a seniority DFR back East by the Empire pilots, chil. Rakestraw killed any chance of that. Besides There arent enough Empire pilots left and even fewer visit this chat room.

Wow. And you all wonder why we on the west don't trust anything you little devils say or promise.

chil, we dont really care if you trust us or not. You refuse to participate, so you get no input. Youll get a list you dont like, youll sue, youll lose, youll be bitter the rest of your career. whens downgrade class? Going 737? At least under AQ you get a type rating out of it. snoop

 

[tazz]

4. There are no Empire pilots. There are no Trump Shuttle pilots. There a re no Mohawk pilot. There are no Piedmont (original) pilots. There are no America West pilots. There are only USAirways pilots who are on the east seniority list, and there are USAirways pilots who are on the west seniority list. That will change in due course to where there are only USAirways pilots on the seniority list.

I absolutely do not believe that the former America West pilots are a bunch of fools. I sincerely believe that some of you are.

I couldn't agree more. There are fools on both sides of the river. We are all, unfortunately, now US Airways pilots. Keep in mind that this seniority issue will find its way into the hands of a judge and that judge will be made well aware that although usapa is imploring him to decide in favor of DOH there is a good portion of the US Airways seniority list that wasn't granted DOH in previous mergers. Precedence cannot be argued, ergo a big portion of the usapa argument is moot. Don't be so confident that DOH will prevail. The courts will decide.

 

[machtuck]

Well and properly said, snoop.

(ouch...)

So many lawsuits, so little time...gonna get expensive being in AOL...paying service dues to USAPA....and suing both the company AND USAPA ALL at the same time....

zowsza!

pretty spendy, if you ask me.

 

[machtuck]

I couldn't agree more. There are fools on both sides of the river. We are all, unfortunately, now US Airways pilots. Keep in mind that this seniority issue will find its way into the hands of a judge and that judge will be made well aware that although usapa is imploring him to decide in favor of DOH there is a good portion of the US Airways seniority list that wasn't granted DOH in previous mergers. Precedence cannot be argued, ergo a big portion of the usapa argument is moot. Don't be so confident that DOH will prevail. The courts will decide.

Well, I'd say that the judge will consider Rakestraw, in that a previously "confirmed" and "implemented"(via contract) seniority list cannot be re-arranged....(ergo, our Empire friends)...the precedence has already been set...so what what will remain (IMO) is the combining of two EXISTING and IMPLEMENTED (via contract) DOH lists....under a combined DOH list...IMPLEMENTED with a new contract...

Just ask your West flight attendants...(AFA is straight DOH)...and we had AFA flight attendants from several carriers on the East list before they merged with west...simple, clean, quick.

I guess we'll see.

 

[tazz]

Well, I'd say that the judge will consider Rakestraw, in that a previously "confirmed" and "implemented"(via contract) seniority list cannot be re-arranged....(ergo, our Empire friends)...the precedence has already been set...so what what will remain (IMO) is the combining of two EXISTING and IMPLEMENTED (via contract) DOH lists....under a combined DOH list...IMPLEMENTED with a new contract...

Just ask your West flight attendants...(AFA is straight DOH)...and we had AFA flight attendants from several carriers on the East list before they merged with west...simple, clean, quick.

I guess we'll see.

The precedence is set.....not for DOH. The flight attendants' merger policy was DOH. No argument there. That's why it was easy for them. Ours was not, hence Nicolau. You guys are so quick to say that the crew news sessions show Parker saying Nic is negotiable. I don't see that anywhere. What I did hear him say in the most recent one is that there are agreements "legal and binding" that he has to adhere to and that he is obligated to negotiate with "our" bargaining agent. So.....rewind the string, your spin is wearing off.

 

[machtuck]

The precedence is set.....not for DOH. The flight attendants' merger policy was DOH. No argument there. That's why it was easy for them. Ours was not, hence Nicolau. You guys are so quick to say that the crew news sessions show Parker saying Nic is negotiable. I don't see that anywhere. What I did hear him say in the most recent one is that there are agreements "legal and binding" that he has to adhere to and that he is obligated to negotiate with "our" bargaining agent. So.....rewind the string, your spin is wearing off.

Ummmm..OK, precedence set under a few ancient mergers under ...which union was it?...oh, yeah, ALPA...
Oh, I'd agree, there might be an argument for "precedence" under an ALPA merger (looking back) Many of you never expected to lose ALPA...and deny it happened to this day..it changes EVERYTHING...your boy Freund tried to tell you...

But, you rightfully point out, we have a new bargaining agent, now don't we...

As to your selective hearing, Parker is talking about the East and West contracts, and a TA...and he says he "has no merged list"...or did you just skip past the parts you didn't like...like your friend Chili does all the time.

It's a little like the FO arguing with Hemenway about what the TA says and doesn't say...he quoted ONLY the parts that helped his story..and left out the recall parts..which, when called on, he said to AH..." I'm not arguing that point..."

(oh yes he was...that VERY point)

And our fashionista, who also had to concede that maybe those 6 had recall rights.(under the TA)..but that also implied ANY west pilot could go East to fly the 190....

what is wrong with you guys?...talk about making things up out of thin air...

spin that.

 

[EastUS]

The courts will decide.

Ok. Fair enough. If you folks have the supportive financial basis and fullest desire for litigation...please call us all in however many years it takes for any final ajudication within the legal system. In the meanwhile, let's get on with life. Why tear each other up further if it's universally agreed to be just a future issue for Judge Judy?

Since there's much being made about the timeline within contract negotiations; I'm curious on a few points though = What year would you expect to see any final resolution in court occur in?. What do you honestly expect to gain at that nebulous future time, if/when/ever any ruling should occur that favors your position? I figure that it's a given for some litigation being launched..I'm just wondering about the honest expectations contained therein.

 

[machtuck]

Here's the irony: by the time they see anything...(if ever) the East attrition will make it moot, but they'll be bankrupt from litigating.

The hands are already in the cookie jar...and they're gonna sue to get the cookie NOW...and they'll spend every penny to do it.

when they could have the whole jar in so many years...

interesting strategerie.

I suppose I'll downshift for a day or two, but I am very aware that they believe being louder and ruder, makes them "righter"...and, in that, they are wrong.

Do NOT confuse "politeness" with "weakness" is my advice to them going forward.