Teamsters "raiding" TWU?

[swamt]

The IBT has not held on to work either. I'm not an IBT supporter just look at UA and CO, both have very high levels of outsourcing. Yes they get paid more however in the May 2010 TA we would be paid more than them with 10% outsourcing. Now BK would have changed that but we would still be making $38.

The IBT at UA, CO, and UPS all outsource the majority of their overhaul. We would lose thousands of jobs under their agreements at AA. Bottom line, more jobs under the TWU agreement and of we had listened to the Int'l we would be number two from the top, not the bottom thanks to the vote no coalition and your local TWU-haters at AMFA, AMP, and the IBT organizers.

Looks like your running out of juice there chiefy, LOL...

 

[Overspeed]

SWA is not outsourcing at a higher rate than they were before. get your facts straight Overspeed. SWA has always been aprox 65-75% outsourcing. No more now than from the beginning. Nice try to twist things up...

In 2004 you had 4.0 AMTs per aircraft and as of 2011YE you have 2.9 per aircraft. I do have my facts straight.

And you are bragging about 75% outsourcing? Nice.

 

[Bob Owens]

The IBT has not held on to work either. I'm not an IBT supporter just look at UA and CO, both have very high levels of outsourcing. Yes they get paid more however in the May 2010 TA we would be paid more than them with 10% outsourcing. Now BK would have changed that but we would still be making $38.

The IBT at UA, CO, and UPS all outsource the majority of their overhaul. We would lose thousands of jobs under their agreements at AA. Bottom line, more jobs under the TWU agreement and of we had listened to the Int'l we would be number two from the top, not the bottom thanks to the vote no coalition and your local TWU-haters at AMFA, AMP, and the IBT organizers.

Still clinging to the same old lie. Who is the "we" you are referring to?

You say that if we had listened to the International that we would not be at the bottom, well isnt that what brought us to the bottom? The membership followed the ATSd direction when they ratified the 2003 deal, and LBOII and thats why we are at the bottom, if we had voted NO we would be right next to the pilots.

 

[Bob Owens]

In 2004 you had 4.0 AMTs per aircraft and as of 2011YE you have 2.9 per aircraft. I do have my facts straight.

And you are bragging about 75% outsourcing? Nice.

Show me the contractual language that dictates how many mechanics per airplane we will have. The fact is the language does not exist. Perhaps WNs ratio was affected by the arrival of new aircraft, like ours will likely be. The Gless letter admitted that our headcount for M&R will go from just under 12000 to under 8000 and over that time frame AA's fleet is not projected to shrink. (So in total from its peak it will have gone from around 18000 to under 8000) In other words our headcount is projected to pretty much shrink as much under the contract as they threatened to do under abrogation. They difference is that we gave them six years to attrit out airplanes that nobody wants to work on anyway, in other words airplanes that they needed till they got new ones that they probably could not farm out even if they wanted to. The company admitted that if they did try and send that work outm if they found a place, they would likely pay a premium, so they valued outsourcing at a very low rate.

 

[Bob Owens]

Very good point. It is not amfa, it is the appeal of an association made up in the minds of all it's would be members. In other words, the amfa that all of you are arguing for simply does not exist. It could not. No union or association could live up to all the hype brought about by member supporters who simply refuse to accept the obvious, or non members who hopefully will never know the disappointments of amfa. You all make this stuff up.

amfa did not strike a nerve, your imagination did. Just a heads up....amfa will never live up to the exaggerated reputation. Jobs will pay for that realization.

You mean like the hype of saying if you vote for us we will force the company to reopen the contract?

 

[swamt]

In 2004 you had 4.0 AMTs per aircraft and as of 2011YE you have 2.9 per aircraft. I do have my facts straight.

And you are bragging about 75% outsourcing? Nice.

Not bragging just setting you straight. SWA is not outsourcing more now than they have before, it's still the same range. Correcting your previous statement, as I have to do with you, Anomaly and Realityck. 3 peas in a pod.

 

[swamt]

In 2004 you had 4.0 AMTs per aircraft and as of 2011YE you have 2.9 per aircraft. I do have my facts straight.

And you are bragging about 75% outsourcing? Nice.

***YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE***

According to Overspeed, SWA is over their alloted 2.75 per A/C count. Geee, where we at now Overspeed??? C'mon, you can do it...

 

[Bob Owens]

Getting to higher productivity through attrition would be ideal. WN didn't layoff any AMTs yes but they outsource at a higher rate than ever before. They pushed AMFA on increased outsourcing an AMFA blinked. AA is different in that we already have those jobs. Should we attrit out overhaul jobs over time and let AA outsource as we no longer have the staff? That would not be layoffs but it would be letting work go that we already have in-house. That is loss of union jobs currently held in the scope language. AMFA rolled at AS and WN any way you slice it.

Business unionist as opposed to what? Shouldn't we show that union workers provide the best quality work and that we should be paid the best? That would be increasing the value of union AMT labor. That means we must look at it from a business angle. Are you suggesting that they should just pay us more just because?

So you admit that you adhere to the principles of business unionism?

http://en.wikipedia....siness_unionism

"One major characteristic of "business unionism" is the principle that unions should be run like businesses! These unions would be organized as top-down hierarchies, with dedicated employees paid in a stratified way. Business unionism creates a centralized bureaucracy that is independent from and unaccountable to the union rank and file.The "union rep", who earns more than the union workers, is a key element of this structure.
According to this model, the main 'battleground' for organized labour moves from the shop floor to the boardroom, where well-paid business leaders of the union negotiate with well-paid bosses of the company."

 

[Anomaly]

So you admit that you adhere to the principles of business unionism?

http://en.wikipedia....siness_unionism

Bob, would you agree you adhere to the principals of procapitalist unions?

http://www.slp.org/pdf/thepeople/sept_octTP03.pdf Page 3

 

[Anomaly]

In reality under the RLA all contracts are extensions of the current agreement.

When I hear people say that "All you guys did was extend the agreement you had before" I cant help but think what a pathetic arguement. If the extension has raises with no concessions at a time when everyone else is giving concessions then its a pretty good deal.

We renegotiated a large part of our contract in 2003, ALL CONCESSIONS. We were told that we would get it all back in 2006, we didnt even ask. Then we allowed the company to drag our negotiations for four years, and agreed to ask to be released the day AFTER they filed, we never did ask. Then we went back in and gave the company even more than they said they were f=going to ask for in their "Vermont Plan".

So the fact is is we had your contract, we would accept an "extension" as well. We accepted much, much worse.

What exactly are you sticking in your crack pipe? Most, if not all, of your former posts as a Local TWU president have spoken to the failures of your union to make significant gains in negotiations and now you are arguing "In reality under the RLA all contracts are extensions of the current agreement." WTF?

DALLAS, Dec. 4 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Southwest Airlines and the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA) are proud to announce that the parties have reached a tentative agreement with a four-year term. The Company is pleased with this cost neutral contract which delivers raises in exchange for work rule improvements and contract flexibility. The current collective bargaining agreement became amendable on August 16, 2008.

amfa agreed to wage increases in EXCHANGE for work rule improvements and contract flexibility. According to the company, they re-arranged a few items to make ZERO gains. COST NEUTRAL. The company, in return for amfa's generosity, was able to post a profit of $373 Million which was a great contrast to all the other airlines who were loosing money during this same period. You now argue that this is OK and acceptable??

This is simple concessions without the name. The goal of open negotiations should be to create workplace and financial improvements and the RLA can actually be a helpful component to that end if used correctly and intelligently.

https://www.fra.dot.gov/Pages/955.shtml

The RLA does not state that all contracts are extensions of former bargaining. It simply creates hurdles before an interruption in service can happen. To create changes, you need a union willing to spend the time and money to negotiate for improvements, not an association who will roll over in favor of extensions. Which are you?

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

The teamster raid is really helping the twu out. Three more AMFA cards coming from SAN.

Go AMFA!

 

[Anomaly]

The teamster raid is really helping the twu out. Three more AMFA cards coming from SAN.

Go AMFA!

Nice deflection

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Nice deflection

Nice deflection

Don,

No deflection. I'll refer to AMFA as a union or association as it doesn't change the fact that the twu is still an industrial, catch all, undemocratic, unaccountable, dues sucking, concession swallowing organization.

 

[Overspeed]

So you admit that you adhere to the principles of business unionism?

http://en.wikipedia....siness_unionism

Uh...no Bob. What I said was that if we are going off the "screw you, pay me" theory of how to get more than we are heeded for even greater losses. As long as we do not have laws and regulations that prevent corporations from using the BK laws, free trade agreements, and lax federal regulations on safety and security then we lack sufficient leverage to compel AA to accept our terms. Your philosophy is doomed to failure because you fail to fully understand and respect the leverage corporations have over us.

I do not agree with unaccountable union reps who run it from the top down. You are paid in a "stratified" way are you not. Name one union local president that makes as much as you do. None. Where is the parity between local presidents? What about accountability for your actions? You have none Bob. You flew around on company passes and had members from yours as well as other locals pay for your junkets to locals that you don't even represent? Did their members vote for their dues to pay for your dalliances across the system? This is all BS anyway and nothing but a way to turn the focus off your screw ups.

You clearly stated many times that BK was a scare tactic and here we are. We recommended that we would get the chance at a better deal if we kept voting no but BK blocked that scenario. You blame the NMB, the Int'l, the judges, consultants, and members in TUL for stopping your agenda but you need to face the truth. You severely under estimated the Company's leverage and resolve and you severely over estimated our memberships leverage and resolve. That is a huge tactical error on your part and we all paid the price.

If we had taken the deal Bob you would have your $38/hour and that is the truth. You helped screw yourself and the rest of us and you are still peddling your snake oil. The MCTs are proof that taking the May 2010 deal would have put us in a superior position in BK discussions which are NOT normal negotiations. You screwed up Bob, own it and stop trying to place clever labels on people to imply some kind of self-annointed title of labor law expert.

 

[Overspeed]

***YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE***

According to Overspeed, SWA is over their alloted 2.75 per A/C count. Geee, where we at now Overspeed??? C'mon, you can do it...

Yep and it has dropped from 4.0 IBT to 2.9 AMFA. Nice.