AMT Teamsters Drive

[PlayTheOdds]

I just got word from a very reliable source that this Teamsters drive is a hoax,...

I hate to hear that AMFAMAN, I really do.

 

[AMFAMAN]

If true, this is a flagrent invasion of member privacy and the rights of individuals to seek alternative representation.

Well now the person who gave me the card assures me this is not true; whatever. I'm not sure what is true and quite frankly don't care anymore. I'm at a point of saying screw them and the head games I'm getting and looking at the Informer's proposal, although a costly one.

 

[Bob Owens]

Two more splendid examples of your complete ignorance in this matter.

FAR Part 66 isn't making any companies happy because IT WAS NEVER IMPLEMENTED ! IT DIED IN THE NPRM PHASE!

Additionally, PART 66 has NOTHINGto do with mechanic staffing requirements. It covers AMT certification requirements.

It may have never been implimented but it hasnt died either. Its still something we should be concerned about.

Here is how I see it. As a shortage of A&Ps develops the industry will claim that they cant get A&Ps, the schools cant pump out enough, so they need to overhaul the process. Instead of schools turning out A&Ps which takes at least two years they will let the airlines certify AMTs as needed. They will go to a 40 hour class and have limited certification that would allow them to sign for their work in the logbook, but they will not be A&Ps.

A few years back an instructor from JFK was sent to England, (which operates under the JARs,FAR66 mirrors JAR66), to teach workers over their the AAGENFAM for the A-300. These guys were hired to do interior checks. When one of the students asked "What is an empenage" the instructor started asking them questions. He found out that they had no prior aircraft maintenace training. However under the JARs they could be certified to do specific tasks if they were trained, even if the training they recieved was meant for liscenced mechanics who had a background that would enable them to make use of the training.What they are doing is akin to taking someone who hasnt even had algebra and putting them Calculus.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

It may have never been implimented but it hasnt died either. Its still something we should be concerned about.

Here is how I see it. As a shortage of A&Ps develops the industry will claim that they cant get A&Ps, the schools cant pump out enough, so they need to overhaul the process. Instead of schools turning out A&Ps which takes at least two years they will let the airlines certify AMTs as needed. They will go to a 40 hour class and have limited certification that would allow them to sign for their work in the logbook, but they will not be A&Ps.

A few years back an instructor from JFK was sent to England, (which operates under the JARs,FAR66 mirrors JAR66), to teach workers over their the AAGENFAM for the A-300. These guys were hired to do interior checks. When one of the students asked "What is an empenage" the instructor started asking them questions. He found out that they had no prior aircraft maintenace training. However under the JARs they could be certified to do specific tasks if they were trained, even if the training they recieved was meant for liscenced mechanics who had a background that would enable them to make use of the training.What they are doing is akin to taking someone who hasnt even had algebra and putting them Calculus.

While I have no doubt that airlines would love to have what you've described, they in no way would've had their wish if PART 66 had passed.

Heres just a overview of PART 66:

OVERVIEW:

1.Under the NPRM a current certificated mechanic with both the airframe and powerplant rating would be considered the equivalent of an AMT(T) (aircraft). The A&P would continue to enjoy the same privileges under the proposed rule as he has under Part 65. He would not be required to exchange his A&P for an AMT(T). But a Part 65 certified mechanic with one rating (airframe) would not be issued an AMT(T) unless that mechanic took and passed the powerplant rating. The mechanic would have to complete the powerplant exams inside an 18-month window that starts on the date of the publication of the final notice of rulemaking on Part 66 in the Federal Register. If the mechanic does not, he would have to complete a curriculum at an FAA Approved Training provider to obtain the additional rating. However, the mechanic would continue to hold his current single rating and privileges.

2.A new Part 66 will be established titled: Certification: Aviation Maintenance personnel. The subparts D (Mechanics) and E (Repairman) in Part 65 will be removed and used to create subpart B (Aviation Maintenance Technician), subpart C (Aviation Maintenance Technician (Transport), and subpart D (Inspection Authorization), and subpart E (Aviation Repair Specialist). (Section 66.1) Subpart A (General) of Part 66 will contain language similar to subpart A of the older Part 65, (drugs, alcohol, and cheating) but includes the requirement for all Part 65 certified mechanics to register with the FAA's Airman Certification Branch in Oklahoma city within 12 months after the effective date of the final rule and periodic AMT(T) registration at the every 48 calendar months thereafter. (Section 66.17) The new rule also prohibits falsification, reproduction or alterations of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports or records. If found guilty of such an act, the individual may have some or all of his certificates, suspended or revoked. (Section 66.19)

3.The term mechanic will be retired. It will be replaced with the term Aviation Maintenance Technician (AMT). There would be two AMT certificates: Aviation Maintenance Technician (AMT) and Aviation Maintenance Technician (Transport) (AMT(T)). (Section 66.51 and Section 66.101) The major difference between the two certificates is the holder of an AMT(T) certificate will be able to sign off all types of aircraft for return to service, including transport-category aircraft certificated under Part 25 and Part 29. The ability to sign off all types of aircraft for return to service is the same privilege that all current A&P mechanics presently enjoy and this privilege will be grandfathered under the proposed rule.

4.There will be two ratings under an AMT(T) certificate: Aircraft and Aviation Maintenance Instructor. (Section 66.53)

5.To qualify to take the AMT test the individual must show 5000 hours of practical experience in procedures, tools, materials, etc., or graduate from an FAA-certificated Aviation Maintenance School. (Section 66.65) The AMT(T) has the same requirements as an AMT but will include an additional 573 training hours in such broad subjects areas as advanced electronics, composites, structural repair, powerplants and systems, publications, safety and environments found on transport aircraft. The actual subjects taught would be identified in an FAA Advisory Circular. This training for an AMT(T) would be supplied only by an "approved" training provider. (Section 66.107 and Appendix A to Part 66)

6.Holders of the older Airframe and Engine (A&E) mechanics certificates that were last issued by the CAA in 1952 and still intend to exercise the privileges of a mechanic are strongly urged to exchange their old A&E certificate for an A&P mechanic's certificate before the effective date of the final rule (the 18-month window). If you do not request the local FSDO to reissue to you a A&P certificate, (no test is required other than showing up) your A&E certificate and all privileges that go with it, including your Inspection Authorization (IA) if you have one will become inactive until you receive your new A&P or AMT(T).

7.The NPRM proposes to require recent experience requirements (Section 66.65
and 66.111) for AMT(T) who work for compensation and hire. This will include mandatory refresher courses, such as Inspection Authorization refresher course, or other courses of instruction acceptable to the Administrator, every 24 months in addition to actual work on aircraft. This rule change does not include mechanics who work for FAR Part 121, 135, or 145 operators.

8.The NPRM allows an AMT to repair or alter a horizontal-card, liquid-filled
compass and approve it for return to service. (Section 66.63(d)(2)(ii))

9.Individuals who wish to work as an aviation maintenance instructor in a Part 147 Aviation Maintenance Technician School must meet the following requirements for the rating. (Section 66.67)
1.Hold a current AMT with airframe rating 2.The AMT must be in effect for at least 3 years 3.Pass a knowledge test within 24 months of the date of applying for the rating.
a.or hold a current and valid ground instructor or flight instructor rating b.. or present documentary evidence showing a degree in education or occupational education from an accredited institution. c.or hold a current State teacher's certificate. d.or show the administrator that the applicant has served as a aviation maintenance instructor or supervisor at a Part 147 school.

10.Part 147 Instructors under the proposed rule will be required to document 300 hours of instructional or supervisor time for each 24 preceding months, or complete an instructor's refresher course each 24 months.

11.Proposed changes in NPRM for the Inspection Authorization are: The holder of an IA must have either an AMT or an AMT(T). An applicant for an IA must have completed an 8-hour IA inspection authorization refresher course within 12 calendar months prior to applying for an IA. (Section 66.151) An AMT(T) with an IA can sign off Part 25/29 category aircraft if approved by the carrier. The IA is renewed every 24 calendar months and annuals, major repairs, or alterations required for renewal can be combined (Section 66.155). However, if the IA plans to renew by going to an IA refresher course, the required refresher course time is doubled to 16 hours. The 16-hour requirement can be spread out over the 24-month period.

12.The NPRM will make the term "Repairman" obsolete. It will be replaced with the term: "Aviation Repair Specialists (ARS)." There will be three different kinds of ARS ratings: ARS-I, ARS-II, and ARS-III.

13.The proposed ARS-I applicant must be 18 years of age, understand and speak the English language, and present a certificate or other documentary evidence that demonstrates satisfactory completion of training course or program that is recognized by the FAA as meeting a national or international standard for a rating/certificate in a certain specialty area. The ARS-I is issued to the individual and not the repair station or air carrier. Issuance may be issued based on national and international qualifications. Unlike the ARS-II certificate, the ARS-I certificate is independent of repair stations or air carrier that the holder works for. If the ARS-I changes employers, the ARS-I certificate goes with the individual. The ARS-I must understand the current instructions of the certificate holder that relate to the specific operations that the ARS-I performs. (Section 66.201 and 66.209)

14.The ARS-II is basically the same as the current repairman certificate. The proposed ARS-II applicant must be 18 years of age, understand and speak the English language, be specially qualified to perform maintenance on aircraft, be employed by an air carrier or repair station in a specific job that requires those special qualifications according to its continuous airworthness maintenance program identified under its operating certificate, or approved operations specifications. The ARS-II applicant must be recommended for certification by his or her employer and have at least 3000 hours of practical experience in the maintenance duties required to be performed under the ARS-II rating, or have formal training in the specialty that is acceptable to the administrator. In addition, the ARS-II must understand and is held accountable for the limitations of the Manual of each certificate he or she works for. (Section 66.209) Current Repairmen will be grandfathered into ARS-II under the proposed rule.

15.The ARS-III is issued for experimental aircraft builders. The ARS-III is almost identical to the old repairman rule in Part 65. (Section 66.205) and current repairmen (experimental, amateur-built) will be grandfathered.

16.Under the proposed NPRM, current repairmen will be issued ARS-II
certificates, and repairman holding the experimental aircraft builders rating will be issued an ARS-III.

 

[Bill]

I just got word from a very reliable source that this Teamsters drive is a hoax, and coming from the higher levels of the twu atd up to and allegedly including Yingst, to see who is signing cards and to do a check on their loyalty from former team twuers. :down:

Now this is really pissing me off knowing that my card got in the hands of these greaseballs, but I guess I should have seen it coming. I'm not sure how the former believers who are running the cards are going to explain this, but oh well, that's their problem.

I had a feeling that something was up when my contact couldn't get a letter confirming that the IBT was behind the drive. Add on that the "Man of the People" has always been a very good source of information, and his post states that he talked with the higher ups of the IBT and they confirmed that their is no drive.

Are you serious?????? I told you almost a month ago that this card drive wasn't legit. All I got was a bunch of bs responses. Oh well....next time maybe you'll listen!


But I must say....you do sound a bit paranoid though. h34r: Better watch out for those "reliable sources". Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it a reliable source that said this card drive was legit?????

 

[eolesen]

Are you serious?????? I told you a week or more ago that this card drive wasn't legit.

So, you're admitting you had insider information on the TWU's hoax?..

 

[Bill]

If true, this is a flagrent invasion of member privacy and the rights of individuals to seek alternative representation.

For starters, I'd be filing an ethics complaint with the NMB.

Next, since the intent of the deception was to identify "disloyal" TWU members, I'd file a harassment complaint with AA HR against the union as well as any union officials like Yingst who may still be on company payroll, since there is zero tolerance for harassment of fellow employees, right?

Please tell me you aren't buying this crap FM??? Some fool thought it would be a good idea to pass out cards thinking it was okay and then realized, oops, I need to get approval from someone to do this. They found out there was to be NO approval and now all of a sudden its a conspiracy.

Oh boy.......

So, you're admitting you had insider information on the TWU's hoax?..

Here's my reply from Aug 28th when I first saw this topic. Anyone who knows anything about the IBT knows this. Pretty cut and cry........

How's this for back on topic......

Are you freakin' kidding me?? The Teamsters are not going to authorize a raid on the TWU. The two organizations get along and respect each other. But, prove me wrong. Show me a letter (a ligitimate letter that is) from any official from the IBT International saying they have authorized an organizing drive at AA among mechanic and related, or will file the cards with the NMB if they receive them. That link Amfaman put up is as generic as all get out. Anyone could have come up with that crap. It's a card. Big deal!! Hackman, Princess, Informer, Amfaman, anyone...anyone???? The burden of proof falls on you.

 

[Bob Owens]

Please tell me you aren't buying this crap FM??? Some fool thought it would be a good idea to pass out cards thinking it was okay and then realized, oops, I need to get approval from someone to do this. They found out there was to be NO approval and now all of a sudden its a conspiracy.

Oh boy.......
Here's my reply from Aug 28th when I first saw this topic. Anyone who knows anything about the IBT knows this. Pretty cut and cry........

How's this for back on topic......

Are you freakin' kidding me?? The Teamsters are not going to authorize a raid on the TWU. The two organizations get along and respect each other. But, prove me wrong. Show me a letter (a ligitimate letter that is) from any official from the IBT International saying they have authorized an organizing drive at AA among mechanic and related, or will file the cards with the NMB if they receive them. That link Amfaman put up is as generic as all get out. Anyone could have come up with that crap. It's a card. Big deal!! Hackman, Princess, Informer, Amfaman, anyone...anyone???? The burden of proof falls on you.

Well actually the Teamsters are looking into it, although at present they are tied up with a few other drives such as ABX. So if they do initiate a drive it wont be for a few months.

Initially the Teamsters and the SEIU claimed that they wouldnt be looking to raid when they left the AFL-CIO, however when you read their "United We Win" proclamation its clear that if they truly want to pursue their objectives, namely specialized representation within certain industries, they eventually must raid.

The Teamsters pursuit of mechanics at ABX indicates that the Teamsters are trying to expand into the airline industry. From conversations I've had with an IBT organizer they were at first more interested in going for just the mechanics. After all their contract at UPS puts their mechanics at the top of the heap. REports are that they will match the pilots increase of 18%, putting them at close to $50/hr, or $20/hr more than the TWU represented mechanics at AA. However the idea of going for everyone, including the gate agents who are currently non-union later came up. Such an undertaking would require a lot of resources, resources that even the Teamsters cant produce at a moments notice.

Organizing all of AAs workers into the Teamsters could be the first step towards doing what even Sonny Hall (former President of the TWU) admitted would be a good thing-getting all the industry into one union. Sonny said "our Lord himself may not be able to accomplish that goal". Well within the AFL-CIO that was true, self interested individuals like Sonny Hall who achieved their positions at the top of their undemocratic unions by sucking up and betraying the membership have no incentive to make changes that would benifit the members. Where else could people with limited education and skills rake down six figure salaries? If the movement consolidated, their postions would be put at risk. They would much rather maintain an inefficient, ineffective organization that provides them, the leaders, a huge paycheck, even if it means the overall decline of the movement.

The Teamsters and the SEIU left the AFL-CIO because they were sick of the way that the AFL-CIO and its member unions blamed the members for their lack of leadership. The IBT and Seiu were sick of the defeatism of an organization where the leaders enriched themselves while presiding over the decimation of workers standards. They both wanted more effort towards organizing, they both demanded radical change in the direction and structure of the movement.In order for them to achieve their objectives they must fight those who resist change, unions such as the TWU who will only talk of change are a prime target.

So, go to the Teamsters website, print up the cards and keep sending them in. This will let the Teamsters know that there is genuine interest in joining the IBT and their vision for a new labor movement.

 

[Birdman]

I and many others on the crew signed Teamster interest notices today. Several AMT's in Hangar 6 are collecting and claim Teamsters want 900 to start a drive. Anybody but the TWU will work for me. More communication about this effort would easily produce 900 "show of interest" applications. THIS IS NOT A HOAX!

 

[AMFAMAN]

I and many others on the crew signed Teamster interest notices today. Several AMT's in Hangar 6 are collecting and claim Teamsters want 900 to start a drive. Anybody but the TWU will work for me. More communication about this effort would easily produce 900 "show of interest" applications. THIS IS NOT A HOAX!

Get me something official in writing from the Teamsters and you'll have 4,000 from the DFW/AFW area in a week.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

We have got to boot the TWU before November. I don't care if it's the Watermelon Pickers of America union. Where do I sign?

 

[eolesen]

The airline organizing division in LAX claims not to know anything about it yet, but that doesn't mean it's not true.

Booting the TWU by November probably won't happen, but if there's an organizing drive underway, it will certainly put pressure on the TWU to take a much harder stance at the bargaining table. And, if the company really wants to keep out the IBT, they might cave in a little more than usual, so perhaps a five year term isn't such a bad idea after all?...

 

[Birdman]

The individual I talked to today in Hangar 6 said at first the IBT was not interested but when pressed demanded the 900 cards. I will ask for contact information so this drive can be legitimized by all.

 

[Bob Owens]

The individual I talked to today in Hangar 6 said at first the IBT was not interested but when pressed demanded the 900 cards. I will ask for contact information so this drive can be legitimized by all.

Last time I spoke to the IBT they didnt committ one way or the other. They said they had to see when our contract expired because by law they could not come in until the contract expired. I told him that we were under the RLA and that law, unless it was a Teamster rule, did not apply. He then said that he had been an organizer for 20 years and that I was wrong. They never said No though. Maybe they changed their mind.

FM is right, a drive for a real union at this time can only be a good thing, accountability, even the threat of accountability can work wonders for the members. It not only pressures the TWU to actually represent the members but more importantly it pressures the company to protect their "in pocket union" or risk having to deal with a real union that is bigger than AMR.

If all title groups in the TWU were included in the drive the chance for success would be much greater. Where would the TWU/AA/NMB pad the list? If all title groups were signing cards it wouldnt matter where they padded the list.



I'll sign and help any way I can!

 

[eolesen]

Hold on, Bob. You've argued for a separate union to represent AMT's as long as I can remember, so how would having the IBT representing fleet and M&E do anything to protect your interests?