Teamsters star fading fast

[swamt]

Bug Mac,

Read the new contract. The TWU membership is paying for representation and this is what they are getting.

Teamsters had a dozen or so organizers out at the curb in two different areas. They plan on knocking on doors again this weekend. If you are tired of them put up a no solicitation sign on your door.

Amfa organizers are having a cookout today, I wonder if they will have the same turnout as last time.

Should be interesting this weekend, with both raiding unions fighting for the same cards.

In Solidarity,

CIO

Pretty damn pathetic that they have to resort to going door to door. Typical teamsters though. They will go door to door telling lies and mis-truths as well as spreading (or should I say trying) intimidation and fear if you do not sign a teamster card.
Hey CIO, you are still avoiding my question. Why is that? C'mon man answer the question...

 

[Bob Owens]

"Yeah, right" is right.

I have to ask; why would any organizer (regardless of affiliation) say something they not only know is likely impossible, but that will undercut any credibility they might be trying to build? if you want to show value in your organization, this ain't the way to do it.

Because the IBT is trying to get AMFA to file early, before hundreds more of the 22000 that AA and the TWU claimed were part of the class and craft back in 2004 drop off the list. The recall list has pretty much been exhausted everywhere except MCI. Even in stations like PHL they have offered the guys recall and the guys have turned it down, the only exception I know of that may have a list other than MCI (and thoseBK) is BDL and we are talking maybe five guys there.

 

[Bob Owens]

They were out on 36th st. north yesterday, but I didn't get a good look at any of them to see if I knew them. It is like bumper cars leaving the parking lot now since everyone gets off at the same time, so I couldn't take my eyes off the road. I didn't hear any horns beeping though. I think the teamsters might be in trouble. Lots of folks concerned about the 4.8% stake in the company that the TWU has not said how they plan to distribute it. It is supposed to be in the contract but the letter of agreement has been left out. Go figure. It is thought the TWU will claim expenses brought on by the BK (already re-embursed by AA) and claim a hefty portion for the international. Heck they let the company double dip on us so they might try it themselves. Why is it such a secret as to how they are going to distribute the cash? You think it is because they plan on giving some work groups a bigger share than others? I am willing to bet the AMT work group won't be one of them.

The 4.8% is a settlement for what we as creditors are losing both in outstanding claims (such as the grievance about how they overcharged us for our medical for 10 years) and going forward. We, all TWU members, are paying $2.2 billion for 4.8% of the company, we pretty much got the worst deal out there. Even if the company was worth $10 billion that means we paid $2.2 billion for something thats only worth $480 million. The company would have to be worth over $40 billion for us to get an equity stake equal to what we are giving up going forward, what we gave up since 2003 is a 100% loss. The TWU was made whole already, the BK cost them nothing. They have no claim to our equity, just as we are stuck with the terms of this contract we are stuck with the Equity no matter who represents us. They may control over it and how its dispersed but we would have a good lawsuit if they tried to play games with it. Our share should be proportional to the dollar figure of what we gave up.

So remember if you get a check for $24k, it cost you nearly ten times that in concessions since 2003 and that again with the loss of retiree medical and the Pension. UAL got $40k, and they kept their double time, Holiday pay, vacation etc and that was after a much shorter period locked in concessions.

 

[swamt]

Because the IBT is trying to get AMFA to file early, before hundreds more of the 22000 that AA and the TWU claimed were part of the class and craft back in 2004 drop off the list. The recall list has pretty much been exhausted everywhere except MCI. Even in stations like PHL they have offered the guys recall and the guys have turned it down, the only exception I know of that may have a list other than MCI (and thoseBK) is BDL and we are talking maybe five guys there.

Pretty pathetic when you have to resort to tactics in order to try and push AMFA out. What is even more pathetic and down right fraud, is the last time, the company and union added dead people, retired people, management people, and people that didn't even work for AA to the "eligibility" list. I do agree with you that the teamsters are trying to get AMFA to file early. Hopefully the teamsters will prematurely file trying to force AMFA to file and they will still NOT have enough cards, therefore removing themselves from the ballot and connot refile for 2 years. Now that would be funny.
Bob, I don't think you would get voted in with AMFA, however, you could help the AMFA group get up and running when the time comes. Maybe be a consultant when the need arises.

 

[Bob Owens]

Pretty pathetic when you have to resort to tactics in order to try and push AMFA out. What is even more pathetic and down right fraud, is the last time, the company and union added dead people, retired people, management people, and people that didn't even work for AA to the "eligibility" list. I do agree with you that the teamsters are trying to get AMFA to file early. Hopefully the teamsters will prematurely file trying to force AMFA to file and they will still NOT have enough cards, therefore removing themselves from the ballot and connot refile for 2 years. Now that would be funny.
Bob, I don't think you would get voted in with AMFA, however, you could help the AMFA group get up and running when the time comes. Maybe be a consultant when the need arises.

Whats really pathetic is when a Union's sole strategy to keep its members revolves around denying the members the right to hold them accountable through fruad and chicanery. One would think it would be so much easier to just give the members what they want, just might cost you perks from the company though.

Whatever happens I would continue to do what I can to try and make things better and continue to fight those who sell us out.

 

[CIO]

Sign the IBT Card, Sign the AMFA card, sign the IAM card, if you are so damn confident the TWU is superior, sign all of the cards get a vote and the winner gets it all. Lets see a debate and vote between them all. I have confidence the members choice.....Do YOU?

To use deceased, fuelers, resigned , and RIF's to prevent a member vote like the TWU in 2003 demonstrates fear of a membership ballot and vote and leaves the Union weak and without support. No Union should ever deny or fear the will of the membership.

But the TWU does often. This fear is only because TWU is failing. Any Union that really believes the way you talk and post here, would surely welcome a membership ballot and vote.

Sign the cards hold a vote!

By the way, No Trespassing and No Solicitation signs will not stop the IBT. I know many that have those, and the assholes were sitting on their porch waiting for them anyway. Like Kirby Vaccum Salesmen, they just will not go away or obey the wishes of the property owner.

I have been involved with the IBT in the past and I have witnessed the all too numerous AMFA fiascos. I don’t sign cards for unions that I don’t want to represent me. If there is an election I firmly believe the TWU will win, but I am not arrogant enough to say I know what the results will be of an election held at a bankrupt carrier involved in a merger.

In Solidarity,

CIO

 

[Bob Owens]

I have been involved with the IBT in the past and I have witnessed the all too numerous AMFA fiascos. I don’t sign cards for unions that I don’t want to represent me. If there is an election I firmly believe the TWU will win, but I am not arrogant enough to say I know what the results will be of an election held at a bankrupt carrier involved in a merger.

In Solidarity,

CIO

Bobby Gless testified back in 2004 that if there was an Election the TWU would lose.

We are much worse off now than we were then, our real pay has declined by at least another 25%, our out of pocket for medical has increased by as much as 600%, and we no longer even have a pension or retiree medical to hold on to.

If he doesnt feel confident that the TWU would prevail why would you?

 

[AA-MRO.COM]

Bobby Gless testified back in 2004 that if there was an Election the TWU would lose.

We are much worse off now than we were then, our real pay has declined by at least another 25%, our out of pocket for medical has increased by as much as 600%, and we no longer even have a pension or retiree medical to hold on to.

If he doesnt feel confident that the TWU would prevail why would you?

Because he is either a fool , has drank to much Kool AAide , is part of the six figure club of appointed idiots . or just refuses to see the inevitable. Either way I cant wait to rub salt in the wound when these unelected overpaid baffoons get the boot.

 

[TWU informer]

I have been involved with the IBT in the past and I have witnessed the all too numerous AMFA fiascos. I don’t sign cards for unions that I don’t want to represent me. If there is an election I firmly believe the TWU will win, but I am not arrogant enough to say I know what the results will be of an election held at a bankrupt carrier involved in a merger.

In Solidarity,

CIO

I fully respect your right to your opinion. But don't you think the rest of the members should be given a ballot to express their opinions and put this to rest for awhile? TWU would have lost in 2004 also, it has nothing to do with Bankruptcy, I have been pushing for AMFA since 1998, and many even before that. The reason this happens is we as individuals, we as AMT's at this carrier, and we as AMT's of this profession have been going down the tube since deregulation. I am seeking a more global improvement, not just at AA. The industrial union/AFL-CIO experiment has been tried for years now and we still have Bankruptcy Laws, Outsourcing Laws, and Union Laws that in general are stacked against us. All you and the others like you offer is more of the same. I am ready to try something different. It is time to stop the reliance on political yard signs, campaign financing, precinct walks, phone banks, get out the vote gibberish. It is time to dismantle the AFL-CIO as we know it and form a group that will force instead of beg the politicians into change. Take a lesson from Labor in Europe about how to effect real change. It is called civil disobedience and large scale membership rejection of current laws. Take our fight to the streets and shut down the transportation system and commerce with a large scale demonstration of strength. Your plan is nothing more than keep doing the same failed action over and over and over and over, and always blaming someone or something else for the failure. Besides you, Mary, and her daughter already got yours at my expense, just move on and live your lavish happy retirement and leave this fight to those of us still in the struggle.

 

[chilokie1]

It was great to meet with the AMFA guys Friday, as a person who considers himself a professional
A&P it was refreshing talking to guys who want the dilution of our profession to end.
There will always be line professionals who are presently grossly underpaid, but the only way
our overhaul base will survive in todays business plans and willingness of taking aircraft overseas
is not to be equal to but better then anybody else!!!

Recently my sister shop (we share supervisors) the MD80 thrust reverser shop has been turned into
a SRP shop, the people they brought in have no reason being anywhere near aircraft parts. The shop
they came from has been outsourced, and now I think their only job is to ruin this shop so they can
outsource it also.
Now more then ever Iam proud to be an AMFA supporter, and trust me when we finally remove our
industrial union we will hold their heads to the fire to focus on one thing "PUTTING PRIDE BACK IN
BEING AN A&P" & all that that implies.

 

[swamt]

I fully respect your right to your opinion. But don't you think the rest of the members should be given a ballot to express their opinions and put this to rest for awhile? TWU would have lost in 2004 also, it has nothing to do with Bankruptcy, I have been pushing for AMFA since 1998, and many even before that. The reason this happens is we as individuals, we as AMT's at this carrier, and we as AMT's of this profession have been going down the tube since deregulation. I am seeking a more global improvement, not just at AA. The industrial union/AFL-CIO experiment has been tried for years now and we still have Bankruptcy Laws, Outsourcing Laws, and Union Laws that in general are stacked against us. All you and the others like you offer is more of the same. I am ready to try something different. It is time to stop the reliance on political yard signs, campaign financing, precinct walks, phone banks, get out the vote gibberish. It is time to dismantle the AFL-CIO as we know it and form a group that will force instead of beg the politicians into change. Take a lesson from Labor in Europe about how to effect real change. It is called civil disobedience and large scale membership rejection of current laws. Take our fight to the streets and shut down the transportation system and commerce with a large scale demonstration of strength. Your plan is nothing more than keep doing the same failed action over and over and over and over, and always blaming someone or something else for the failure. Besides you, Mary, and her daughter already got yours at my expense, just move on and live your lavish happy retirement and leave this fight to those of us still in the struggle.

Well said. Agree 100%

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I fully respect your right to your opinion. But don't you think the rest of the members should be given a ballot to express their opinions and put this to rest for awhile? TWU would have lost in 2004 also, it has nothing to do with Bankruptcy, I have been pushing for AMFA since 1998, and many even before that. The reason this happens is we as individuals, we as AMT's at this carrier, and we as AMT's of this profession have been going down the tube since deregulation. I am seeking a more global improvement, not just at AA. The industrial union/AFL-CIO experiment has been tried for years now and we still have Bankruptcy Laws, Outsourcing Laws, and Union Laws that in general are stacked against us. All you and the others like you offer is more of the same. I am ready to try something different. It is time to stop the reliance on political yard signs, campaign financing, precinct walks, phone banks, get out the vote gibberish. It is time to dismantle the AFL-CIO as we know it and form a group that will force instead of beg the politicians into change. Take a lesson from Labor in Europe about how to effect real change. It is called civil disobedience and large scale membership rejection of current laws. Take our fight to the streets and shut down the transportation system and commerce with a large scale demonstration of strength. Your plan is nothing more than keep doing the same failed action over and over and over and over, and always blaming someone or something else for the failure. Besides you, Mary, and her daughter already got yours at my expense, just move on and live your lavish happy retirement and leave this fight to those of us still in the struggle.

You are correct. When there is a labor problem in France, for instance, the garbage doesn't get collected, the buses don't run etc. If we were all really union people, we would all get together no matter who represented us and get something done. If it takes the entire industry to walk off the job to change these laws we should ALL be prepared to do it.

 

[CIO]

[
Informer;

You, of course, also have the right to your opinion. But, I cannot agree that AMFA represents something new or innovative in the Airline industry for mechanics or anyone else. AMFA has been tried in many places by people accepting exactly the arguments you make just about every day on this Board. The problem is---the vast majority of people AMFA has represented “ the promises did not have any relationship to reality“. That is why an organization that was once the biggest mechanic union in the industry lost representation at six different carriers and went from 20,000 to 3,000 in a very short time.

We were told by Dell that AMFA didn’t take concessions. We now know that isn’t true. I’m not going to go through the whole laundry list of mechanic wage and benefit concessions at UAL in the Bankruptcy Exit Agreement signed by AMFA, but at the end of the day the Company got everything it said it needed. And after skewering the IAM for agreeing to unrestricted outsourcing of heavy maintenance visits, AMFA signed on to the same language and, while also getting a provision to continue to work the three heavy maintenance lines the IAM managed to keep, AMFA agreed to remove the IAM’s prohibition on foreign outsourcing. The initial contract with the Beijing facility for a hundred heavy checks was first made on AMFA’s watch under the language it gave United, which UAL is now exploiting to the max after the IBT signed on to it. How did Dell Femine describe these concessions and what did he recommend? He did not recommend that the AMFA membership fight UAL on the streets or let the Company abrogate the contract and impose its terms until AMFA could strike rather than agree to concessions. Instead, he said “We had to accept it or let the judge do it. It was the lesser of two evils.” That explanation is no different than the TWU, IBT, IAM or any other mechanics union dealing with a bankruptcy proceedings.

We could also talk about Northwest, but both of us know that story only too well. What I continue to be amazed at is AMFA’s total refusal to take responsibility for what happened. I would never support AMFA or suggest anyone do so, but I could have some respect for a leadership that, after close to 10,000 of their members lose their jobs permanently on their watch, would come clean and say “we screwed up, our strategy didn’t work.” That is not what I read. What I read is that AMFA did nothing wrong and, as usual, it is all the fault of the industrial unions which refused to support AMFA. Except it is false. Craft unions also refused to support AMFA, including the flight attendants union which AMFA helped form to decertify the Teamsters. In fact, the only union that gave AMFA real economic support was the UAW, the most traditional industrial union of them all. The money given to support the AMFA membership (more than AMFA gave them) was taken from the paychecks of the very sorts of industrial workers that are insulted on this board every day. Look, it was no great secret Northwest was training scabs in the desert. I read about it on these boards, but while NWA management was preparing for a strike, AMFA was at AA working on another failed attempt to raid the TWU.

It’s all fine and well to talk about going to the streets to fight unfair laws and corporations which exploit mechanics (as well as other workers), and trying to shut down the transportation system. If that’s your plan it might be a good idea to have the support of bus drivers and rail workers and all the other people who your supporters demean on these boards daily. If you seriously think that AMFA is ever going to draw the support of the rest of the labor movement or working people in general in making this type of fight you haven’t looked at its history or read the comments of its organizers and supporters on this board.

In Solidarity,
CIO