Teamsters card drive

[WeAAsles]

Why do you insist on answering him when most of us has stopped. He is not a mechanic where this is mechanic (maint) related thread. I know he is part of the same union under the same contract but hie issues need to stay in the fleet thread. I am sure many here would agree.



Now Bob don't take this post personally, but you know me and I am just going to be blunt. I tried to warn you guys many times that you guys were NOT going to have a vote on the association. I spent hours for days on the phone with the NMB, and posted all my findings in the original thread to show all what I found. I then put word out to YOU Bob personally to get the members my information as I knew you had the right connections. Some (very few I might add) here in the threads believed me, a couple doubted me and challenged me, and two fought me to the bitter end that you guys would get a vote, until up to the day that guess what, just as I said it was gonna go down. NMB ruled that they had "no jurisdiction" on that type of representational vote and that it would be handled by the union themselves, and BAM! It happened, overnight you guys were all of a sudden a combined association without one single vote from the membership or one iota of a word put into it. Even 700 had you guys believing (some of you) that I was just a planted AMFA organizer lying my ass off when it was the TWU/IAM lying their asses off to you guys just so you guys would not sign a card to have the unions removed from the property and that is why this association was forced upon this membership. Why didn't you believe me Bob? Cuz I really can't believe any of you would believe that dum-a$$ 700 and all the other characters that were following in his footsteps to rty their dambness to discredit me. What is completely f'd up is that a mechanic from another airline did all the work to find and prove all this to you guys and not one from the AA membership took the time to call the NMB until it was too late, and yes 2 guys did do a follow up and backed everything I said and you guys still believed every single word the TWU/IAM, 700, weasles, and others promised you guys. That is not only sad it's Pathetic man. Sorry but had to throw that out there cuz it is the truth and always has been, you guys ignored it, I just tried my best to bring it to you...

What also is F'd up is how you like to stick your nose in other people's business. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you have to say since you DO NOT work for American Airlines and you ARE NOT in any of the Unions (Any of them at all) currently representing American Airlines.

Again after almost 5 years now you should concern yourself with matters in your OWN house period.

And I respect Bob (May not always agree with him) and would like to hope he respects me just a little too.

Bob can take a few whacks on the chin and not get all prissy like you and some others do.

 

[Bob Owens]

Thanks Bob. I agree with most of the things you said here actually and the ones I don't quite agree with I'm not going to argue with you out of personal respect.

On the last line though all you have to do is read how FSC people are treated (I earn it myself some) when any of us comment on one of their threads and "maybe" that's why some people feel the way they do "unfortunately" about Maintenance. But there is some level of reciprocation which I find personally shameful.

Yes I did hear that Lombardo and co. did try to get us out of the deal but Little made sure it was rock solid. The CWA thing we're not completely out of yet either. There's still the matter of a lease agreement in DC (Whether it's a good place to be or not) That lease seems pretty expensive but what do I know about Real Estate prices in the Nations Capital?

Did you ever hear a rumor that Pike, Danker and Peterson were asked to take a seat but none of them could decide amongst each other? (Since you put this out there) I'm not 100% committed to this "Autonomy" thing myself but it's the price to be paid for the Little regimes heavy hand I guess?

I like Doyle and Virella was cool with me but we both know experience or not they put their best foot forward and went full bore for Lombardo against Gordon so that's not a surprise. But no 100% you need to have a Maintenance guy in the ATD 100%. I have ZERO argument against that. Maybe Gless put a bitter taste in some people's mouths but it's high time to put him in the past and move forward, IMO. I'm hopping it happens after we get that JCBA and if not I would gladly join anyone who would have me in that push. (Frankly Peterson has really impressed me lately)

As for Samuelsen I don't know the man personally but I like the "real" stories I've read about him in the papers. And if he doesn't know the Airlines I hope he's a quick learner and has people that will force feed it down his throat if need be? Otherwise for now Garcia knows our issues very well in the meantime. But Political activation for Aircraft Maintenance HAS to become a future primary focus, again IMO. I just don't read much of a push in that area from anyone where I think it should be. And that goes for AMFA, IAM, IBT and the TWU as well.

I've never supported the way some guys trash Fleet, I've repeated my assertion that any job that needs to be done should be paid a livable wage, and on many many occasions challenged those of my peers who do trash other workers.

IMO they did not try hard enough, they did the Association because they were afraid of an AMFA vote.

What happened was Peterson was offered a spot if he withdrew the lawsuit. In other words he had to do what he was morally against and commit personal political suicide. He rejected the offer as he should as it was made with ill intentions. Lombardo tried to bully nus at the Convention. Peterson and Pike did not get along very well and Dale was unknown, so there was never any such meeting or offer that I'm aware of.
Little fancied himself a Real Estate mogul, and nearly bankrupted the Union.
Autonomy in TWU parlance has always been "You are on your own, but you do not have complete control. You can sink or swim but we pick the waters." The rejection of moving Title II from local 510 to 591 is a perfect example of this.
I'd met with Virella prior to the 2009 Convention and brought up just meeting with Samuelson to see what he had to say. He was extremely critical of Samuelson, I found out why when Virella got the nod from Little a few weeks later at the Convention, he reminded of Pauly when he found out he was being a made man in the movie Goof Fellas. In 2013 they put their cards on the table only after it was already obvious that momentum was going against Little's Team.
Garcia knows your issues, not ours, remember, although Fleet has suffered immensely your relative situation has remained fairly good. Your standing among your peers has not been as severely damaged as ours. Most of your decline is market driven, ours was too but made even worse by our own Union, by people getting paid off by the company. Your situation is much harder to fix, IMO you need to structure yourselves as much as possible like the Longshoremen. One Union for all of Fleet, if possible one Local. The people taking your jobs for much less are often in the same union, TWU Local 504 for example. They too are good people trying to do the best they can for their members but their challenges, their survivability is in direct conflict with you. Its easy for a company in that end of the Industry to simply liquidate, change their name, transfer their contracts and tell their employees come back here tomorrow at minimum wage and no union.

Samuelson is a good leader but he has demonstrated that he is all about Local 100. Sure he will help within certain confined parameters but he also has no use for mechanics as he considers us to be Craft Unionists. Something he is very much against, his views are based upon their relationship with the very strong, but also very right wing Conservative Craft Labor movement in NYC. He doesn't understand airline culture. He is in charge now but I don't see him interfering with Garcia, and Garcia has already shown that he is no friend of Maint, the Local 510 deal made that perfectly clear. Garcia will block anything that shifts power of mechanics to mechanics and away from Fleet. They wont even let us have what works pretty well for the TWU at SWA.

To me the most pressing political issue is not a Maint issue, it affects all airline workers. We are not going to get rid of Foreign Aircraft Maintenance, even with Trump for all my coworkers who supported that altzheimers riddled idiot. IIRC we as a nation in-source more Aircraft Maintenance than we outsource, so the argument is weak, most of the outsoucing went to places in the US. Where we do have a much better argument is the inequality of the treatment of Airline workers in Bankruptcy, where the courts cherry picked rulings while ignoring the repeatedly stated intent of the legislation those rulings were about. The RLA was clear that we would never have terms that were never agreed upon imposed on us, but the courts said that didn't apply to the Airlines. The RLA was founded upon the concept that a standing mutual agreement was the basis of the prohibition against strikes or Lockouts, that's why our contracts are amendable. It even says that contracts can not be modified though any other means such as bankruptcy. It blocked any such unilateral moves and said that if such moves were made then the prohibition on striking was no longer in effect. The courts however chose to ignore this incrementally, step by step over decades and the Unions did nothing about it. The pilots did try, but the way they presented it was ineffective.

 

[Bob Owens]

What also is F'd up is how you like to stick your nose in other people's business. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you have to say since you DO NOT work for American Airlines and you ARE NOT in any of the Unions (Any of them at all) currently representing American Airlines.

Again after almost 5 years now you should concern yourself with matters in your OWN house period.

And I respect Bob (May not always agree with him) and would like to hope he respects me just a little too.

Bob can take a few whacks on the chin and not get all prissy like you and some others do.

Aren't you doing to SWAMT what you just complained about mechanics doing to you? I identify myself as an Aircraft Mechanic first, its what I was before I came to American and what I'll be when I leave.

The fact that you and many others Identify yourself as an American Airlines employee first is what makes us weak. Your American identity takes Priority.

To me SWAMT is a brother mechanic, and a fellow Unionist. We share the same vocation just work in different places and have different unions. I feel that the information we share with each other has value. Didn't you even say a few posts back that I needed to look at other mechanics contracts? What happens to me affects him, and vice versa. In negotiations there rarely is any talk brought up by either side of what Fleet has or doesn't have but we are compared to mechanics at other carriers regularly. I fully believe that the reason why they have not gotten a contract is because we set the bar so low there is nowhere for them to go, same goes for Fleet at SWA.

 

[WeAAsles]

Aren't you doing to SWAMT what you just complained about mechanics doing to you? I identify myself as an Aircraft Mechanic first, its what I was before I came to American and what I'll be when I leave.

The fact that you and many others Identify yourself as an American Airlines employee first is what makes us weak. Your American identity takes Priority.

To me SWAMT is a brother mechanic, and a fellow Unionist. We share the same vocation just work in different places and have different unions. I feel that the information we share with each other has value. Didn't you even say a few posts back that I needed to look at other mechanics contracts? What happens to me affects him, and vice versa. In negotiations there rarely is any talk brought up by either side of what Fleet has or doesn't have but we are compared to mechanics at other carriers regularly. I fully believe that the reason why they have not gotten a contract is because we set the bar so low there is nowhere for them to go, same goes for Fleet at SWA.

I used to support the "individual" but when that individual decided to attach labels on me for both my job function and my "opinions" I withdrew my support for "Him"

I ABSOLUTELY support his Union concluding a hopefully great deal and am also ecstatic to read that there is strong showings of solidarity in ALL the Labor groups for each other there.

Something I wish we could learn here.

 

[1AA]

Aren't you doing to SWAMT what you just complained about mechanics doing to you? I identify myself as an Aircraft Mechanic first, its what I was before I came to American and what I'll be when I leave.

The fact that you and many others Identify yourself as an American Airlines employee first is what makes us weak. Your American identity takes Priority.

To me SWAMT is a brother mechanic, and a fellow Unionist. We share the same vocation just work in different places and have different unions. I feel that the information we share with each other has value. Didn't you even say a few posts back that I needed to look at other mechanics contracts? What happens to me affects him, and vice versa. In negotiations there rarely is any talk brought up by either side of what Fleet has or doesn't have but we are compared to mechanics at other carriers regularly. I fully believe that the reason why they have not gotten a contract is because we set the bar so low there is nowhere for them to go, same goes for Fleet at SWA.

Oops, ouch, be careful Bob, you're the only one he's got left in the sandbox to play with. Everyone else weasled their way out.
I never used the igore option before on any forum. I must say it works great when you have to distance yourself from others who have no business meddling in our specific issues.

 

[P. REZ]

http://www.pensionrights.org/create-content/action/story-bank

and Isom should brief himself on Kleine Miller

and you iam guys with 20 years to go, and now making decent wages better educate yourself on what's going on too.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/03/20/l-it-the-401k-is-a-failure.html

 

[swamt]

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/03/20/l-it-the-401k-is-a-failure.html

I beg to differ on this one. It's the participants not wanting or not affording to put into their 401K's that is the failure, it is not the 401K's are the failures. I know individuals that have 500K to 3 million as aircraft mechanics in their 401K's and still building. And yes some of the top earners I use as examples are daily in and out but not all.

 

[toroshark]

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/03/20/l-it-the-401k-is-a-failure.html

Snake oil salesman

 

[CremaDiLimone]

I know individuals that have 500K to 3 million as aircraft mechanics in their 401K's and still building.

wow..considering that there is a max amount of money allowed in per year/modest 'catch-up' and given the fact that the market took huge hits in 99, 01, 2008...etc...$3 million is an advertisement for the 401k.

the wealthy in the usa allowed us to use their former tax shelter after they decided that blue-collar workers will fund their own pensions.

forbes did a 30 year special. in 1983, nearly 90 out of forbes' top 100 american companies offered a pension plan. in 2013, 4 out of forbes' top 100 american companies offered one.

so yes, a 401k/ira is the only choice for many.

 

[chilokie1]

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/03/20/l-it-the-401k-is-a-failure.html

What exactly is your point? The panel pretty much agreed that a 401K is good as long as the investment choices are wide ranging. I would say the Super Saver plan is at least above average in that respect, the failure aspect of the video comes from people not being diligent in saving for their own retirement.

 

[chilokie1]

I wish we all still had our old company pension plans, but guess what they are gone and I do not see them coming back. The IAMPF in a outsourcing of jobs type industry is a disaster waiting to happen, no thanks I will take my chances with a diversified portfolio 401K.

 

[P. REZ]

Point is, 401k is not the perfect situation. As a society, we have allowed Corporate America to sell us on a 2 legged stool of retirement when it should be a 3 legged stool. Google 3 legged stool for retirement. It's a shame it is to this point where we are conditioned as a society to settle for the 2 way approach to retirement.

P. Rez

 

[Bob Owens]

Why do you insist on answering him when most of us has stopped. He is not a mechanic where this is mechanic (maint) related thread. I know he is part of the same union under the same contract but hie issues need to stay in the fleet thread. I am sure many here would agree.



Now Bob don't take this post personally, but you know me and I am just going to be blunt. I tried to warn you guys many times that you guys were NOT going to have a vote on the association. I spent hours for days on the phone with the NMB, and posted all my findings in the original thread to show all what I found. I then put word out to YOU Bob personally to get the members my information as I knew you had the right connections. Some (very few I might add) here in the threads believed me, a couple doubted me and challenged me, and two fought me to the bitter end that you guys would get a vote, until up to the day that guess what, just as I said it was gonna go down. NMB ruled that they had "no jurisdiction" on that type of representational vote and that it would be handled by the union themselves, and BAM! It happened, overnight you guys were all of a sudden a combined association without one single vote from the membership or one iota of a word put into it. Even 700 had you guys believing (some of you) that I was just a planted AMFA organizer lying my ass off when it was the TWU/IAM lying their asses off to you guys just so you guys would not sign a card to have the unions removed from the property and that is why this association was forced upon this membership. Why didn't you believe me Bob? Cuz I really can't believe any of you would believe that dum-a$$ 700 and all the other characters that were following in his footsteps to rty their dambness to discredit me. What is completely f'd up is that a mechanic from another airline did all the work to find and prove all this to you guys and not one from the AA membership took the time to call the NMB until it was too late, and yes 2 guys did do a follow up and backed everything I said and you guys still believed every single word the TWU/IAM, 700, weasles, and others promised you guys. That is not only sad it's Pathetic man. Sorry but had to throw that out there cuz it is the truth and always has been, you guys ignored it, I just tried my best to bring it to

Be blunt it saves time. I don't recall 700 convincing anyone, I seem to recall him saying we don't need to vote and should not be allowed to vote. Our Union said we would get to vote. Don't recall saying that I didn't believe you, only repeating what we were told. Here is the thing, what could we have done about it anyway? The only way to stop it would have been to have a card drive and file within that time frame. Who had the resources for that? The last AMFA card drive I believe they allocated around $8000 for the drive.

 

[chilokie1]

Point is, 401k is not the perfect situation. As a society, we have allowed Corporate America to sell us on a 2 legged stool of retirement when it should be a 3 legged stool. Google 3 legged stool for retirement. It's a shame it is to this point where we are conditioned as a society to settle for the 2 way approach to retirement.

P. Rez

Of course it is not but what else is there? With the information that is readily available on the IAMPF, especially the 2016 numbers that just came out, it is amazing to me that anyone in your position do anything but voice your opinion against the IAMPF, instead of your position on the fence.

 

[Bob Owens]

I wish we all still had our old company pension plans, but guess what they are gone and I do not see them coming back. The IAMPF in a outsourcing of jobs type industry is a disaster waiting to happen, no thanks I will take my chances with a diversified portfolio 401K.

I agree they are not coming back and we need to focus on a more realistic 401K plan, at least as much as SWA, and make it a contribution. Portability gives us more leverage at the bargaining table. Look at how much we sacrificed to save the pension in the past. only to lose it when it really started to add up. Being chained to the IAMNPF means being chained to not only the Association but AA as well, only they are no longer giving us the same guarantee. The company gets to have the same deal without liability, even better, than a 401K. My concern is they will try and sell the IAMPF as a bona fide DB plan like we had when in fact its a DP plan. If we had the SWA 401K plan since our DOH most of us would have in excess of $1million, enough to live a long comfortable retirement and leave a little something for the kids. I'd be able to retire now. I read that when the Auto Industry first proposed a company sponsored, funded and managed Pension plan to Walter Reuther he scoffed at them, "What makes you think these company will still be around to pay these pensions" . He was later sold on them, but that was a different time. That was the era of lifetime employment and rewards for productivity, when Capitalism had to prove itself as an ideological battled played out across the Globe. Unconditional support of Capitalism was rewarded with financial stability and comfort. Capitalism won, and they no longer feel any need to prove anything.