SWA now getting involved with slot (s) possibilities

[swamt]

WT I have never said anything about DL being in BK, nor, have I said anything about 2005.  Are you ok?  Or did you confuse myself with someone else again.  BTW, I agree with the rest of your post, and yes Dl is making big profits right now, as is most, including SWA making record profits.  Hope all this will continue for several years in the future for all of us...

 

[WorldTraveler]

my previous was not addressed to anyone... but WNMech referenced DL's BK a couple of times.

As I have said multiple times, I believe DL and WN will be driving forces in the industry but they will also be tough competitors. It isn't a fluke that the reason why DL and WN are as effective in the marketplace is because they both share a very competitive spirit and have the resources and business structure to make it happen.

At times, DL and WN will have to aggressively compete against each other.

 

[swamt]

my previous was not addressed to anyone... but WNMech referenced DL's BK a couple of times.

As I have said multiple times, I believe DL and WN will be driving forces in the industry but they will also be tough competitors. It isn't a fluke that the reason why DL and WN are as effective in the marketplace is because they both share a very competitive spirit and have the resources and business structure to make it happen.

At times, DL and WN will have to aggressively compete against each other.

So, like I said, you had me confused with someone else. 
I can only hope that Delta and SWA will very aggressively competing against one another, it will help keep the low fares low and competition good for the consumers as well...

 

[robbedagain]

true swamt 

 

[WNMECH]

WT, where are these SWA guys who are up in arms over Delta?
How many times do I have to say it?

I don't care who flys out of the other 4 gates at Love field.
I really don't care. Honestly, cross my heart.

You are into all this world domination stuff.
We only want our piece of the pie and keep churning out profits.
You are clearly the only one worried about who is dominating who.
It is all you ever talk about.

 

[Kev3188]

DL actually closed its hub at DFW BEFORE it filed for BK - by several years.

DL's DFW hub was dismantled as a hub by Feb 2005, six months before BK.

Hunh...


 

We only want our piece of the pie and keep churning out profits.

I'd be willing to bet that's what most actual WN & DL employees want, too...

 

[WorldTraveler]

WT, where are these SWA guys who are up in arms over Delta?
How many times do I have to say it?

I don't care who flys out of the other 4 gates at Love field.
I really don't care. Honestly, cross my heart.

You are into all this world domination stuff.
We only want our piece of the pie and keep churning out profits.
You are clearly the only one worried about who is dominating who.
It is all you ever talk about.

No, I'm not into world domination. I am into fair competition. Regardless of who has said it - and this discussion has not been just between me and you - there have been people who have expressed that DL should not get any of the slots or gates that are being divested from the AA/US settlement agreement.

If you or anyone is really interested in getting your piece of the pie then you should have no problem if DL shows up.

Since DL will show up, then I guess it will be tough competition between DL and WN.

DL may or may not dominate the world - I doubt it - but when they have demonstrated that they can compete effectively with any carrier that is present any of the key markets DL wants to serve, then DL will grow.

Not every carrier in the free market will be profitable or successful, Kev, even if that is what their employees want. DL's job is for it to win.... but that is true for every company. History of the airline industry clearly shows the airline industry leaves casualties and the AA/US merger hardly means that every one is "safe" now, as much as some investors want to believe that.

I have no idea where DL will say "enough is enough" but for now they clearly want to be a two airport in N. Texas, something AA and WN cannot do.

DL might have the last laugh in N. Texas at AA and WN's expense.

 

[WNMECH]

No, I'm not into world domination. I am into fair competition. Regardless of who has said it - and this discussion has not been just between me and you - there have been people who have expressed that DL should not get any of the slots or gates that are being divested from the AA/US settlement agreement.

If you or anyone is really interested in getting your piece of the pie then you should have no problem if DL shows up.

Since DL will show up, then I guess it will be tough competition between DL and WN.

DL may or may not dominate the world - I doubt it - but when they have demonstrated that they can compete effectively with any carrier that is present any of the key markets DL wants to serve, then DL will grow.

Not every carrier in the free market will be profitable or successful, Kev, even if that is what their employees want. DL's job is for it to win.... but that is true for every company. History of the airline industry clearly shows the airline industry leaves casualties and the AA/US merger hardly means that every one is "safe" now, as much as some investors want to believe that.

I have no idea where DL will say "enough is enough" but for now they clearly want to be a two airport in N. Texas, something AA and WN cannot do.

DL might have the last laugh in N. Texas at AA and WN's expense.

Well, we have already had the first laugh at you, when it was proven Delta could NOT compete, and was driven into bankruptcy.

 

[WorldTraveler]

except as much as you want to maintain that image of DL, it is not reality. You keep living with that image if it makes you feel better.

IN the meantime, DL will establish itself as a fierce competitor in some of WN's key markets. And that is precisely what this is all about. WN really doesn't want to have to compete with anyone.

It moved into Love Field to avoid having to compete with everyone else and has built one hub after another in markets where there is little competition or where they were on the way out of town. AA has been very kind to hand over one market after another to WN.


Too bad that is not the way things work with DL.

Too bad that WN might not succeed at DAL as much as they thought they would because they have to compete with DL to some of the top markets from the metroplex.

 

[swamt]

I have no idea where DL will say "enough is enough" but for now they clearly want to be a two airport in N. Texas, something AA and WN cannot do.
 

WT, what makes you think SWA cannot operate from both airports?  Nothing is out there that stops SWA from flying out of DFW while we still fly out of LF.  The W/A agreement still allows SWA to start flights out of DFW if they want to...

 

[swamt]

It moved into Love Field to avoid having to compete with everyone else and has built one hub after another in markets where there is little competition or where they were on the way out of town. AA has been very kind to hand over one market after another to WN.

Too bad that WN might not succeed at DAL as much as they thought they would because they have to compete with DL to some of the top markets from the metroplex.

Just gotta love how you try to paint the pictures for SWA.  SWA did not move into LF to avoid competition from others.  Others moved out of LF to start flts out of the new airport, all of them did except for SWA.  SWA wanted to stay at LF and make it it's home town airport.   Don't sit there and just think everything was just handed to SWA.  That's the biggest BS line ever.  AA worked diligently to try and put SWA out of bus., with lawsuits after lawsuits (just like they always do) to put any new airline upstart out of bus.  (don't forget Legend).   AA has not handed anything over to SWA.  SWA has successfully fought for and gained the passengers they have today by just being themselves,  (St Louis) Definitely was not just handed over to SWA either.
Don't count out SWA at LF, you are jumping the gun way too early.  Dl hasn't even won any slots there yet.  And as I said before they will not get any more than they have now, IF, they even keep those 2 gates after the divestures are done.  Everything is still up in the air at LF.  But do remember one thing, nothing in the divesture slots at LF can violate the W/A agreement which has the language addressing the 16 gates SWA will maintain, the 4 left over gates that will be operated by 2 different carriers, and how those 4 gates will be used/shared if another carrier wishes to start flights from LF.  Again it's all speculation for now, but I just don't see Dl getting more gates than they have now, and that is even if they keep what they have now after finalization of the divestures by AA at LF since AA owns the gates Dl is currently using, it will be very interesting to say the least.
Good luck when the bidding starts (if Dl is allowed to bid) I think there will be other carriers coming out the closer we get to the divestures...

 

[WorldTraveler]

yes, but doesn't it require WN to give up gates at DAL if it flies from DFW?

listen, I would be tickled pink if you guys manage to fly out of DFW as well as DAL... just like what DL is going to do.

And I am very much aware of how much AA has tried to put WN out of business and how WN has been put in a box in its own hometown.

Karma could well be a 78923 for AA.

But it is also very possible that if WN tries to come to DFW, the whole WA could be overturned including WN's access to 16 gates.

I would stand with AA in a heartbeat if WN is allowed to hold onto 80% of DAL and then move into DFW w/o giving up anything at DAL.

What happened 40 years ago wasn't right but it also isn't right for WN to all of a sudden start picking out the parts of the agreement that it signed in order to get revenge at AA's expense while AA is left with no way to defend itself.

Either the whole WA goes and with it WN's claims to 16 gates at DAL or the revised WA is adhered to. I'm betting on the latter.

WN hasn't even made the revised WA work or their HOU int'l operation. They might want to prove themselves doing those things first.

But then that would allow DL to gain a foothold that WN doesn't want to allow....

 

[eolesen]

WT, what makes you think SWA cannot operate from both airports?  Nothing is out there that stops SWA from flying out of DFW while we still fly out of LF.  The W/A agreement still allows SWA to start flights out of DFW if they want to...

Correct, but for every gate occupied at DFW (or another airport within 80 miles), WN would have to give up control of one gate at DAL, up to 8 gates. Any gates given up would become common use gates (not allocated to any one airline), and WN would be able to use them if there were no other airlines interested in using them.

So, they could move into DFW in large fashion, and still hold onto 8 gates at DAL, plus whatever was left untouched by other airlines. Not likely, but possible.

That part of the compromise agreement expires in 2025, at which point they can move into DFW without giving up any gates at DAL, and vice versa for AA should gates become available.

 

[swamt]

E is correct. At one time I heard SWA was looking at a loop hole of "gate for gate". Meaning if SWA was to go to DFW and start a domestic flight(s) then they would be required to give up a domestic gate at LF. But if they were to start an international gate at DFW, there is no international gate at LF to release. I have never heard how this has turned out so I am assuming that it is either dead or never materialized to anything. Other than this suppose loop hole, yes, as far as I know it is gate for gate until 2025, then it is wide open, and no gate releases would be required.

 

[WorldTraveler]

perhaps WN can find a loophole regarding the int'l operation and if they do, then it is just one more win for WN in the long-standing pushing match between AA and WN in N. Texas. IF WN is able to operate int'l flights at DFW and lose nothing at DAL, then it is AA that will bear the hurt more than anyone else. If WN operates HOU and DFW to Latin America, they cut right to the heart of AA and UA's Texas networks.

But AA and WN would still be restricted to operated domestic flights from one airport or the other and/or lose gates. Other airlines including DL do not have that restriction.

The future of Texas aviation could and likely will change dramatically as AA, UA, and WN slug it out leaving openings the size of barn doors for out of state competitors to exploit against all three.