SWA now getting involved with slot (s) possibilities

[WNMECH]

What you fail to admit is that non-stop service and connecting service are both access to DCA for these so called small cities and that after slot divestitures they will STILL have flights to DCA.

I will bet that none of the cities that have access to DCA now, will have no access to DCA after these slots change hands.

Also AA alone will decide which routes they cut. Congress will not tell airlines where they must fly.

 

[WorldTraveler]

AA-US has already said as part of the settlement announcement that there will be cities that will not retain nonstop service to DCA.
 
Everyone wants nonstop service.  Remember that DCA has a perimeter that limits the distance for most flights from DCA.
 
I still say that the settlement agreement will either be modified to ensure that current cities retain nonstop service or there will be additional slots added.
 
What was the Wright Amendment but an interference by Congress in where WN could fly from DAL?

 

[eolesen]

Why do you think the W/A was born?  And don't use the BS answer of, to protect DFW.

<sigh>

The Wright Amendment was created almost a decade before AA hubbed DFW (that was done in 1981 for the history challenged), and about five years before they moved their HDQ there.

So, if you're about to go down the rabbit hole of saying that Wright was written to protect AA, which someone eventually tries doing every time the topic comes up, it's pretty far from the truth.

The reality of what DFW had for service in 1971 and today are about as far apart as it can be.

So yes, the Wright Amendment really was about protecting the investment that both cities made in the greenfield development located some 20 miles from both downtown areas.

Fort Worth had no choice but to close Amon Carter/Greater Southwest Airport when DFW opened, because it was directly in the flight path. AA's current HDQ sits on the property which was redeveloped quickly into what we know today as Centerport.

Thus, there was no going back for Fort Worth, and that's when the lawsuits started.

It's been a lesson for almost every new airport construction project since then to close down the runways almost as soon as the new airport opens.

All that said, WN, AA, and BN before them all found ways to make the Wright Amendment work in their favor.

 

[eolesen]

What was the Wright Amendment but an interference by Congress in where WN could fly from DAL?

That's pretty ignorant of the facts (nothing surprising here...).

Wright only came about after Dallas violated the agreement between the two cities to close their respective airports, and invest billions in a new airport that was horribly inconvenient for where the population was at the time..

If anything, Wright provided a nice wall of protection for WN to be able to grown to what they are today. You'll note they didn't complain about it until they'd captured some 10% of domestic traffic...

 

[WorldTraveler]

You can choose to see the Wright Amendment how you want but the reason it exists is precisely because WN was not a signatory to it and thus won the legal challenges that tried to force them out of DAL. There would be no WA If WN had not remained at DAL.

It is absolutely true that WN has looked for every opportunity to grow their presence at DAL by chipping away at the WA.

It is precisely because DFW has grown into a full fledged int'l airport and AA's hub at DFW is the 2nd largest in the US that there is no basis for the anticompetitive restrictions that exist at DAL and DFW and between AA and WN. Given that the community has restricted the size of the facilities at DAL, it is not possible for any other carrier to fully compete against WN at DAL so it is only fair that AA and WN both be restricted in N. Texas.

 

[WNMECH]

DFW is pretty close to DAL.
Anyone who wants to, can compete from there.

Delta did it for 30 years with NO restrictions on them, but then.........

That's right. They went bankrupt and closed that hub.

 

[WorldTraveler]

aw... so WN really doesn't want anyone competing from ITS hub.... but they want into DCA and LGA that the legacy carriers have built with substantial investment over decades.

DL actually closed its hub at DFW BEFORE it filed for BK - by several years. DL gave up only about 5% of the local market even though it pulled down several hundred flights per day which says they were using DFW as a transit hub far more than was necessary to serve the local market. Thus, DL reallocated its assets used to serve DFW as a hub including to NYC where DL moved from #3 in the market to the #1 domestic airline and #2 international airline. DL's move was totally justified - just as AA's decision to close BNA and RDU was based on building up MIA.

DL has managed to retain its relative ranking in the N. Texas market as the #2 carrier to markets outside of the current WA restrictions which is precisely why DL intends to build up WN and not give up its market position to WN and why DL intends to serve its top markets from both DAL and DFW.

DL still has a very strong customer base in N. Texas and intends to provide the services that market wants.

WN is welcome to build out DAL longhaul and I certainly hope they will but DL intends to be present at DAL just as DL has been since long before WN ever existed.

Not sure the gates at DAL will accommodate the 747s that DL used to fly to DAL but I hope the day will come when DL is using its 200 passenger 757s plus 321s and 739s. Like WN, DL intends to maximize its access to scarce gates at DAL.

 

[WNMECH]

aw... so WN really doesn't want anyone competing from ITS hub.... but they want into DCA and LGA that the legacy carriers have built with substantial investment over decades.

DL actually closed its hub at DFW BEFORE it filed for BK - by several years. DL gave up only about 5% of the local market even though it pulled down several hundred flights per day which says they were using DFW as a transit hub far more than was necessary to serve the local market. Thus, DL reallocated its assets used to serve DFW as a hub including to NYC where DL moved from #3 in the market to the #1 domestic airline and #2 international airline. DL's move was totally justified - just as AA's decision to close BNA and RDU was based on building up MIA.

DL has managed to retain its relative ranking in the N. Texas market as the #2 carrier to markets outside of the current WA restrictions which is precisely why DL intends to build up WN and not give up its market position to WN and why DL intends to serve its top markets from both DAL and DFW.

DL still has a very strong customer base in N. Texas and intends to provide the services that market wants.

WN is welcome to build out DAL longhaul and I certainly hope they will but DL intends to be present at DAL just as DL has been since long before WN ever existed.

Not sure the gates at DAL will accommodate the 747s that DL used to fly to DAL but I hope the day will come when DL is using its 200 passenger 757s plus 321s and 739s. Like WN, DL intends to maximize its access to scarce gates at DAL.

Ok, I will try to be more clear to you next time.

Delta reduced flights so you didn't call it a hub anymore, then left DFW almost completely in the same year they filed for bankruptcy.

All the stories I read, say they closed their hub in 2005 and filed for bankruptcy in 2005.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/travel/news/2005-01-31-delta-dfw_x.htm

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/14/news/fortune500/delta/

You feel better about it now?

 

[WNMECH]

WN is party to an agreement that lets other airlines compete from Love Field while WN is restricted to 16 gates in the whole north Texas market.
Anyone can get gates at DFW.
Who got the better deal?

 

[WNMECH]

Love is not that more convenient to fly out of unless you live right next to it.
You have to get get off the hwy and drive surface streets to get there. From downtown Dallas, if you stay on the hwy, you will be at DFW about the same time.
DFW is closer to most people in the metro plex and is only 10 mins from Love.

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL's DFW hub was dismantled as a hub by Feb 2005, six months before BK.

Even after the hub was closed, DL remained the 2nd largest airline at DFW, a position it continues to hold.

I don't disagree with you that WN got the raw end of the deal - but AA and WN will probably be equally unhappy that DL will end up being able to compete to some of the top markets in the metroplex from both DAL and DFW, something that neither AA or WN will be able to do. And of course neither AA or WN want a non-Texas airline to end up as the largest airline from the metroplex to a half dozen or so cities.

Love Field may or may not be as convenient as DFW but the vast majority of passengers in the combined N. Texas market to the cities that WN can serve now within the WA manage to find themselves to Love Field.

 

[WNMECH]

DL's DFW hub was dismantled as a hub by Feb 2005, six months before BK.

Even after the hub was closed, DL remained the 2nd largest airline at DFW, a position it continues to hold.

I don't disagree with you that WN got the raw end of the deal - but AA might be equally unhappy with WN that DL will end up being able to compete to some of the top markets in the metroplex from both DAL and DFW, something that neither AA or WN will be able to do.

Love Field may or may not be as convenient as DFW but the vast majority of passengers in the combined N. Texas market to the cities that WN can serve now within the WA manage to find themselves to Love Field.

The jury is still out on if it is more profitable to split flights between DFW and DAL.

Also, Delta was bankrupt and bleeding money way before they actually filed in 2005.

 

[WNMECH]

Love Field may or may not be as convenient as DFW but the vast majority of passengers in the combined N. Texas market to the cities that WN can serve now within the WA manage to find themselves to Love Field.

That is because they want to fly on SWA jets.

 

[swamt]

Given that the community has restricted the size of the facilities at DAL, it is not possible for any other carrier to fully compete against WN at DAL so it is only fair that AA and WN both be restricted in N. Texas.

Wait a minute, what about the almighty Delta??

 

[WorldTraveler]

With 16 of the 20 gates, WN has the DAL market locked up enough that no other carrier can effectively compete with WN.

WN is also more than capable of putting enough seats in the N. Texas market using its 16 gates to compete with AA's DFW hub so don't cry a river to anyone how about how WN is at a disadvantage in any way.

WN has gained the position of the largest carrier in most of the short-haul markets from the metroplex because they have had much lower costs than AA for much of the past 35 years of deregulation. I hold nothing against WN for what they have achieved nor do I expect them to do anything short of competing very hard to gain a strong position in the rest of the domestic N. Texas market that it will be able to serve in less than year.

But as much as you want to think otherwise, DL is not in BK and this isn't 2005. DL is generating profits as strong as any airline in the world. Those kinds of profits mean that DL has a lot of results in can use to achieve its strategic objectives. IN the next year, DL's objective is to clearly to be the dominant airline in the markets it serves and will serve from N. Texas' two largest airports, DAL and DFW.

Neither AA or WN want to see the top markets from N. Texas being dominated by DL but that is very likely what will happen. The fact that the WN maintenance department on this forum is up in arms highlights WN's anxiety about having to compete with Delta, one of the only carriers that hasn't rolled over every time WN has showed up and won't in the next year either.