SW/Airtran Seniority

[jimntx]

This thread sure has gotten quiet all of a sudden. Second thoughts about eliminating all options and financial incentives? This is going to get very interesting. And, I doubt seriously that Gary Kelly will tolerate years of US Airways-style sniping and backbiting. I have a feeling that binding arbitration at WN means binding. Take it or leave it.

 

[QA4Jet-A]

Other than me not having a SW employee number, a SW seniority number, a SW employee ID badge, & not receiving SW pay, I guess you're right.

CJ, Have you been getting early Shut Offs in Wing Fuel tanks lately if the load calls for full wings? I've been trying to work with several Check Airmen on this issue. Seems some are closing at 8850 but then the pilots claim they can transfer fuel from the Center out, back into the wings and get them up to 9200. I'm trying to decide whether to take this to Boeing.

....and yer right, I still have my FL emp number, FL ID Badge, my ATL, BWI & TPA badges still say AirTran and my paychecks still say AirTran Airways! Still in Newnan too... My point is, I do want to move through this transition smoothly and look forward to working at WN. Just that I won't feel like I am a WN Employee until SOC and all the stuff gets settled out. I hope I didn't sound disrespectful in any way towards WN, just pointing out to a previous poster, we still work @ FL and are owned by WN. No Biggie to me. Cheers, QA

 

[jimntx]

Other than me not having a SW employee number, a SW seniority number, a SW employee ID badge, & not receiving SW pay, I guess you're right.

And, you may not get any of those things if the unions can not come to agreement on seniority integration. Then, you will just be an employee of a WN wholly-owned subsidiary.

 

[QA4Jet-A]

And, you may not get any of those things if the unions can not come to agreement on seniority integration. Then, you will just be an employee of a WN wholly-owned subsidiary.

We are now 🙂

 

[citrus jock]

And, you may not get any of those things if the unions can not come to agreement on seniority integration. Then, you will just be an employee of a WN wholly-owned subsidiary.

If the unions can't come to an agreement, THEN I will be an employee of a WN wholly owned subsidiary??? Only at THAT point will I be??? I'd like to be the first to welcome you Jim to August of 2011. Nothing slips past you, does it? If the unions can't come to an agreement, then comes binding arbitration, where there's little, if any doubt, that the majority of AirTran pilot's seniority, in a combined list, would improve compared to what was offered. They offered a lot of money in exchange for a windfall for their pilots in a combined list. Our MEC voted it down. There's a defined process in place, already agreed to by both groups, that includes mediation, then arbitration. I think a big reason for the "no" vote (besides the seniority issue) was that the "fences" weren't really fences when jumping them would benefit a SW pilot. Time will tell as to whether or not this was a wise move by our MEC. My gut says it will be.

QA - I'll PM you when I'm back in town. I'm typing this on my cell phone, which is rather frustrating.

 

[jimntx]

"He [Gary Kelly] expects next year's overall capacity to be the same as or slightly lower than 2011 as AirTran planes are taken out of service to be converted to Southwest."

There was no mention in the article of AirTran employees moving over with those conversions.

Complete article in Star-Telegram

Also, aren't the pilots at AirTran members of ALPA? Isn't that the same fine union that did such a good job for the TWA pilots in the AA-TWA debacle? Not judgin'. Just sayin'.

 

[citrus jock]

What GK wants you & the rest of the public to know, he tells the Star Telegram, et al. What he wants AirTran & SW employees to know is put out in internal memos, etc. Each time an AirTran plane is pulled out of service (to be repainted & converted), a proportional number of crews get pulled to go to training. Let me guess: that wasn't in the article you read was it? AirTran pilots are members of ALPA, & since that debacle known as the AA/TWA cluster happened, there's been at least one law passed that addresses that type of situation. Again, welcome to 2011 Jim.

 

[Jim Lively]

Also, aren't the pilots at AirTran members of ALPA? Isn't that the same fine union that did such a good job for the TWA pilots in the AA-TWA debacle? Not judgin'. Just sayin'.

They are, and they came out smelling like a rose.

http://airlineforums.com/topic/51247-former-twa-pilots-win-suit-against-alpa/

 

[lineguy]

After the first AIP was turned down by the MEC, AT went back to the table with a new offer. SWA said they wouldn't even negotiate unless the MEC guaranteed that any agreement would be sent out to a vote by the entire pilot group. The MEC agreed. Then Herb and Colleen walked into the room and made specific threats as to what would happen if an agreement wasn't reached. SWA rejected the AirTran proposal and said here is our new proposal....we will give your guys a few more numbers on the integrated list, but no AirTran pilot comes to SWA as a B737 captain. You can be a SWA B737FO, SWA B717 captain or SWA B717 fo. The new AIP has no base protections, seat protections (except B717 until 2015), SWA pay now starts when you go to training (instead of April 2012 under the old AIP). A small number of B737 AT pilots will actually convert to SWA in 2012. No 717 conversions until 2013. Most AT guys will lose $40K - $100K by the delay to SWA rates. Junior AT 737 fo's may get displaced to the 717 and then not on SWA rates until late 2014. Still stapling the bottom 450 AT fo's. Furlough protections not as good as AIP1. Most all AT pilots will end up commuting. Compared to AIP1, AIP2 is much worse financially for AirTran guys and gals. SWA has made it clear that if they turn it down, AT pilots will not be assimilated and can file for unemployment.

 

[SharoninSAT]

AirTran, Southwest pilots to vote on seniority deal in merger

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
September 28, 2011


Pilots from AirTran Airways and their counterparts at Southwest Airlines will soon vote on a deal to combine their seniority lists, a critical step forward in the merger of the two airlines.

But it comes amid a difficult struggle among pilot union leadership. A first deal fell apart last month when leaders of the Air Line Pilots Association at AirTran decided not to pass it onto members for a vote.

Disagreements among pilots can foil the success of airline mergers, as has happened in the US Airways-America West merger. If the new deal is approved by a vote of nearly1,600 AirTran pilots and more than 6,000 Southwest pilots, it could work to smooth the transition.

Southwest is eager to avoid going to arbitration, saying a negotiated deal "gives both groups ownership."
Some discussion among pilots has circled around statements by Southwest chief executive Gary Kelly, who raised the possibility that AirTran's operations might not be fully combined into Southwest, which is a larger carrier with more financial stability. Southwest executives have also said they do not plan to permanently keep AirTran's Boeing 717s, which could affect pilot jobs.

Negative fallout from the failed first deal led to an ongoing vote among AirTran pilots on whether to recall some of their union leaders.

The new Southwest-AirTran seniority deal would involve a gradual transition for pilots from AirTran into Southwest pay rates and positions, starting next April and to be completed by the end of 2014, according to union documents. The first deal also included an increase for AirTran pilots to Southwest pay rates next year.

But there are some other benefits AirTran pilots would still retain in the new deal. They would retain their longevity with AirTran after they move to Southwest and would not be furloughed before the transition is complete, "unless prohibitive conditions occur."

Pilot jobs on AirTran's Boeing 717 jets would, for the most part, be reserved for AirTran pilots until January 2015. Pilots on the 717s would maintain AirTran pay rates through 2014, and then rise to pay rates of Southwest Boeing 737 pilots.

Pilots will vote on the seniority deal Oct. 8 through Nov. 7.

 

[jimntx]

Well, I hope all you AT pilots are happy now. Your union has squelched the deal that Southwest offered you. You know, the one with the fences and the 40% pay raise. From what I gather, the new deal offers you something between zilch and nada. Congratulations guys. You have successfully fought off a huge raise and some job security guarantees. Way to go!

 

[swamt]

Well, I hope all you AT pilots are happy now. Your union has squelched the deal that Southwest offered you. You know, the one with the fences and the 40% pay raise. From what I gather, the new deal offers you something between zilch and nada. Congratulations guys. You have successfully fought off a huge raise and some job security guarantees. Way to go!

- Jim we tried to let them know what would have happened if they did not vote in the first offer. The same sinerio now lays with the mechanics as well. Most all thought it was all smoke and mirrors. They are now realizing how true it all really is. The ALPA membership should push for the recall of its officers, they in fact, are the sole purpose for the ALPA members to get a much worse deal than the original offers. Way to go ALPA MEC at AirTran!!!

 

[buscador]

After the first AIP was turned down by the MEC, AT went back to the table with a new offer. SWA said they wouldn't even negotiate unless the MEC guaranteed that any agreement would be sent out to a vote by the entire pilot group. The MEC agreed. Then Herb and Colleen walked into the room and made specific threats as to what would happen if an agreement wasn't reached. SWA rejected the AirTran proposal and said here is our new proposal....we will give your guys a few more numbers on the integrated list, but no AirTran pilot comes to SWA as a B737 captain. You can be a SWA B737FO, SWA B717 captain or SWA B717 fo. The new AIP has no base protections, seat protections (except B717 until 2015), SWA pay now starts when you go to training (instead of April 2012 under the old AIP). A small number of B737 AT pilots will actually convert to SWA in 2012. No 717 conversions until 2013. Most AT guys will lose $40K - $100K by the delay to SWA rates. Junior AT 737 fo's may get displaced to the 717 and then not on SWA rates until late 2014. Still stapling the bottom 450 AT fo's. Furlough protections not as good as AIP1. Most all AT pilots will end up commuting. Compared to AIP1, AIP2 is much worse financially for AirTran guys and gals. SWA has made it clear that if they turn it down, AT pilots will not be assimilated and can file for unemployment.

Let me ask this, how is it conceivable, that 8 men can so arrogantly decide the fate of 1700+,,, that is 1700+ families, carreers and lifestyles they may have permanently changed the course of,, for the rest of their lives... no we all know that most pilots are smarter than everyone else(wink) but to make such a monumental decision and not let it go to a vote is above arrogance,, do you agree?

So the 7 who voted that --NO ,,No one gets to vote because ..their we got your back guys attitude,, thats why you voted on us boys and trust in us attitude,....what happens to them in the long run? wont the 1700 others have some serious anymosity towards them for EVER,, how do you stop the venom?

Now the 1 guy that Voted,-- hey why not let the good ol boys club vote on this and see what they think,, I almost feel bad that he was apart of the "Omnipotent 8",, what is his take on the whole thing,, the fact they all seriously mistook SWA s attempt to put a fair deal on the table w/o letting it go to vote

Now I know that fairness is in the eyes of the beholder,,,, and that no two sides will ever totally agree but,, and this is a big Butt(no pun intended) dont you think that a flat out NO,, was the worst case scenario,, kind of a slap to SWA and its management? Wouldnt it of been a better approach to say,, looks good.. lets send it to a vote thereby leaving the door of hope open,,see how the other 1700 people vote,, then gone back to the table and said here are the sticking points?

I guess I am over my head here and maybe my logic is scewed,,, what is your take from the LINE...

 

[jimntx]

You may not get a response. After all the early bravado of what they would and would not accept, when their MEC refused to put the company's offer out for a vote, and the company took all the money and the fences, etc. off the table, it's been rather quiet from the AT side.

 

[metopower]

You may not get a response. After all the early bravado of what they would and would not accept, when their MEC refused to put the company's offer out for a vote, and the company took all the money and the fences, etc. off the table, it's been rather quiet from the AT side.

When the whole group votes is when you see what the Pilot group thinks. If they vote it down (which they should in my opinion ) then it goes to arbitration.In the long run that is the best. I have been on both sides of seniority list intergrations only one is fair to BOTH sides . Short term pay raises will never pay for a career of bitterness.