SW/Airtran Seniority

[tech2101]

I agree! What happened to the SW culture?

I am sure that this guys is not representative of all LUV employees, is he Sharon?

 

[SharoninSAT]

I am sure that this guy is not representative of all LUV employees, is he Sharon?

He's not. Everyone I know and that I have talked to in the different work groups
are enthusiastic about the acquisition and are looking forward to welcoming our new
SW Employees from AirTran. Both Companies have a lot to offer
each other and the Employees and we all remain positive and very hopeful
for a fair seniority integration and smooth transition for everyone involved.

 

[xUT]

He's not. Everyone I know and that I have talked to in the different work groups
are enthusiastic about the acquisition and are looking forward to welcoming our new
SW Employees from AirTran. Both Companies have a lot to offer
each other and the Employees and we all remain positive and very hopeful
for a fair seniority integration and smooth transition for everyone involved.

As always, you are a voice of reason, fair and an asset to your company!

It may be just a few disgruntled employees stirring the pot or even company management trying to divide and conquer (FYI management of most airlines glean posts here and are known to post as well).

I would have to stick with ‘actions speak louder than words’ (or internet brouhaha as the case may be).

Unfortunately, the supposedly SW AMFA posts have mirrored the SW AMFA position in collusion with the company against AT AMT’s.

I hope I am wrong.
We will see.

Best to you all!
Take Care,
B) xUT

 

[metopower]

LCC? Do you mean LLC? Anyway, it has nothing to do with TWA LLC or TW ALPA. This agreement is still enforce, because it is in the APA contract as a provision that AA and APA agreed to in the seniority integration agreement. But maybe you also knew that and just forgot. Just for memories, TWA had 2 official bases and AA closed one. The smaller of the 2, NY. When everyone was based in STL, they also received more flying out of the base. I don't know for sure, but I would venture a guess that AA has twice as many pilots in STL than F/A's. Maybe more. On to the F/O's you are talking about, TW pilots are all over the system. They chose to do this when they are recalled if they don't live in STL. There are many of them in LGA as well as other bases. I will venture another guess and say very few if any are on the west coast. Those bases are already occupied by the Air Cal and Reno pilots let alone senior AA guys/gals. You keep mentioning the ever shrinking base at STL. Yes for F/A's, NO for the pilots. As of today, the STL pilot base can NOT go below a certain percentage, and that percentage is tied into the size of the pilot bases in ORD and DFW. If AA sends all the SFO pliots to the place they have been sending all the F/A's lately, they will end up in DFW. Which, when all is said and done, might force the STL base to grow by a few pilots. Never know.

You are right again. The STL base agreement is between AA and APA . The TWA pilots are not in agreement. That is why there is a law suit.that agreement was a cram down to force the TWA pilot and F/A's into a much inferior position. Since that base can not grow, any pilot recalled has to go somewhere .No matter where they are assigned they are at the bottom of the list.Furloughed AA pilots were hired After the agreement .The point is this was a cram down not an agreement.To be fair both side have to agree not AA and APA. If you were to ask a TWA pilot he would tell you that they never signed the agreement and that is why the sued ALPA.

 

[IORFA]

All lawsuits concerning any seniority at AA are over and they all failed. The only thing that is positive at this point is the TWA pilots won a DFR suit against ALPA. Pretty much sure that it will be appealed, with the outcome still up in the air. Either way, it doesn't effect AA or APA. Concerning the size of the STL pilot base, please re-read my statements. I never said it couldn't grow, you did. I just said it can't go below/shrink a certain point. In fact, there is a ceiling as well. AA can keep STL at any size it wants, within the parameters set in the agreement. AA has some latitude in the agreement. What is the percentage today? I have no idea, I can only guess that it is on the low side of the agreement. AA can add pilots if they choose, their prerogative, not mine. Regarding STL recalls, since 3 Jan 2007 197 were recalled to STL/D/FO/S80 and 54 were recalled to STL/D/FO/767. The most recent recalls to STL were 24 AUG 2011 and 5 were recalled to the S80 and 5 were recalled to the 767, both F/O's. So either the base is growing or people are voluntarily leaving or retireing from STL. I would venture the over 250 recalls to STL are majority former TWA. Not all, but majority. This info is from the APA website and open to the public. Look for yourself if you want. Very user friendly. Also, one can assume that if they were not given the choice of STL that they would be given the opportunity to transfer before any recalls were assigned to STL. Thus, if someone wanted to go to STL, they could either at recall or soon after. In fact if someone wanted to upgrade and transfer to MIA, the last group listed is 21 SEP 2011 and the entire class went to MIA/I/FO/767. So some are coming back as widebody F/O's international. Not too shabby to come back from recall sit reserve and get trips to places like MAD, SCL, GIG etc. among the numerous 757 trips. You are correct about the recalls, whoever they are, are put at the bottom of the senirioty list. It is because they are junior. To be fair and to clarify, no one was put there after recall, they were always there and their position hasn't changed since 2001.

 

[num1bearsfan]

He's not. Everyone I know and that I have talked to in the different work groups
are enthusiastic about the acquisition and are looking forward to welcoming our new
SW Employees from AirTran. Both Companies have a lot to offer
each other and the Employees and we all remain positive and very hopeful
for a fair seniority integration and smooth transition for everyone involved.

If you say so,.. I've yet to encounter one person in my 500+ member work group who has any use for AirTran and does not have genuine concerns over integration. That's just real life. Not the glad handing company generated "One LUV" stuff.

 

[IORFA]

Looks like the SFO Chairperson is going to start the discussion of getting Supp. CC stopped by AA and APA. This is the article that forces AA to keep the STL pilot domicile so large and letting the former TWA pilots use a different/higher seniority in the STL base only. Probably won't go anywhere, but it does start the discussion and you never know. I am sure AA wouldn't mind Supp. CC going away.

 

[metopower]

Looks like the SFO Chairperson is going to start the discussion of getting Supp. CC stopped by AA and APA. This is the article that forces AA to keep the STL pilot domicile so large and letting the former TWA pilots use a different/higher seniority in the STL base only. Probably won't go anywhere, but it does start the discussion and you never know. I am sure AA wouldn't mind Supp. CC going away.

Now I get it your an AA guy. Get ride of LLC and screw them again. Good idea for AA seniority but bad for TWA seniority .I"m sure you can explain how a 767 capt with 30 years can not hold any capt seat outside of STL .

 

[tech2101]

If you say so,.. I've yet to encounter one person in my 500+ member work group who has any use for AirTran and does not have genuine concerns over integration. That's just real life. Not the glad handing company generated "One LUV" stuff.

When do you find time to work on airplanes? With all the surveying of your 500+ member workgroup and the trashing of your future coworkers it seems that your days (or nights) are full.

If you are indeed representative of SWA as you say, then your belief that the airline world revolves around you will be short lived.

Karma is a drag. Enjoy your ride.

 

[buscador]

If you say so,.. I've yet to encounter one person in my 500+ member work group who has any use for AirTran and does not have genuine concerns over integration. That's just real life. Not the glad handing company generated "One LUV" stuff.

Thank You,,, for your honesty... no matter how fluffy others may want to make it sound,, the ONE LUV stuff,,, this is real life.. with real apprehensions and concerns. There is NO WAY anyone on either side can ignore the elephant in the room..

The Morris aquisition was tough enough as Pilots/ FA's sued and complained about it for years and some still to this day,, that was more than 17 years ago. Keep in mind that Air Tran is approx 10 times bigger than Morris was,, this is a business deal and I understand it,, I understand the headlines and the pom poms.,,, but lets be real. This has a very serious chance of changing the lives of so many as well as the Culture at SWA for ever.. if the animosity is 10 times that of the Morris group,, then it will not be pretty no matter what the Pom Poms say

Ok,,, enough said,, I am going to look for my pom poms and rose colored glasses,, I may have left them in my truck,, oh no I hope I didnt leave them at TSA., then I will never get them back(oops, TSA is wonderful, smart and do a really great job,,wink)

Good Day to All

 

[IORFA]

Now I get it your an AA guy. Get ride of LLC and screw them again. Good idea for AA seniority but bad for TWA seniority .I"m sure you can explain how a 767 capt with 30 years can not hold any capt seat outside of STL .

Do you actually work in aviation? TWA LLC has been gone since around 2003 or so. There hasn't been a TWA for many many years, so there is no TWA seniority it is all AA. As of today, your 30 year 767 capt is still flying the 767 as a capt, so what is the big deal? That they don't get to transfer to LAX and fly the same? Problem is that they didn't have that option with TWA either. So, I guess I am missing what the problem is. Would you rather that there was no fences of any kind and no base line for the STL base? How would the former TWA pilot fare with that? If they want to go to LAX for example, they know the issue with going. It is one of many choices every person has to make in life. Every choice has different consequences that need to be considered. If 9-11 hadn't happened, STL would most likely still be around and former TWA guys/gals would have had many opportunities to upgrade at this point to different planes. The way the seniority was set up, the most senior guys by 2020 or something would have been the TWA guys as the junior pilots were so young. Still would be if they all came back from furlough. Going on 10 years at this point, I would assume most won't leave WN or B6 to come back and sit reserve. If you think AA handled the seniority integration bad, then that is your opinion. Just use facts, it makes your argument worth reading, otherwise it is just the ignorant whining about what they don't understand.

 

[num1bearsfan]

When do you find time to work on airplanes? With all the surveying of your 500+ member workgroup and the trashing of your future coworkers it seems that your days (or nights) are full.

If you are indeed representative of SWA as you say, then your belief that the airline world revolves around you will be short lived.

Karma is a drag. Enjoy your ride.

My impression of the general consensus of my work group is merely based on the countless group "ready room BS sessions" I've taken part in over the past 6 months. I have a pretty good idea where my work group stands, at my station anyways.

Quite frankly I don't understand why this is so friggin hard for some people to deal with. You can't understand from the Southwest point of view WHY some of us are less than enthused? Ok so let me get this straight.. The Southwest people are excited to welcome over a bunch of AirTran employees because they're just so awesome? Really? So between the two, AirTran people gain higher pay, benefits, and evidently expect DOH seniority, and the Southwest people gain,.. Awesome new co-workers! :blink:

Seriously?... I mean, I don't mean to pee in the punch bowl but enough with the phoney enthusiasm. I'm all for being a cheerleader for our company, and I can understand why from the COMPANY'S point of view they'd want to pump this rah rah AirTran stuff and at least attempt to make our own people swallow this pill a little easier, but some of us have brains. Maybe some of us with the 30 years of seniority have the luxury of not giving a flying fart. But I can guarantee you the 5-10 year guys are seeing things a little differently. I guess maybe the 30 year guys don't give a flying fart about their own 5-10 year guys either.

 

[metopower]

Do you actually work in aviation? TWA LLC has been gone since around 2003 or so. There hasn't been a TWA for many many years, so there is no TWA seniority it is all AA. As of today, your 30 year 767 capt is still flying the 767 as a capt, so what is the big deal? That they don't get to transfer to LAX and fly the same? Problem is that they didn't have that option with TWA either. So, I guess I am missing what the problem is. Would you rather that there was no fences of any kind and no base line for the STL base? How would the former TWA pilot fare with that? If they want to go to LAX for example, they know the issue with going. It is one of many choices every person has to make in life. Every choice has different consequences that need to be considered. If 9-11 hadn't happened, STL would most likely still be around and former TWA guys/gals would have had many opportunities to upgrade at this point to different planes. The way the seniority was set up, the most senior guys by 2020 or something would have been the TWA guys as the junior pilots were so young. Still would be if they all came back from furlough. Going on 10 years at this point, I would assume most won't leave WN or B6 to come back and sit reserve. If you think AA handled the seniority integration bad, then that is your opinion. Just use facts, it makes your argument worth reading, otherwise it is just the ignorant whining about what they don't understand.

Yes I am in aviation .I'm wondering about you? The TWA deal was BEFORE 911 .If it had happened after 911 that deal would probably never have happened.TWA would have been part of the loan program that saved USAir .Just facts TWA had an LAX 767 base also ..closed by AA .That 30 yr. 767capt. Has an AA seniority of 4900 now. It was 300 at TWA ..he is still capt on same jet after over 10yrs. AA pilot hired in the same year is 280 .But I'm sure you knew those facts. A TWA guy will be at the top of the list in 2020? What kind of argument is that? So after most of the original AA seniority list retires what's left of theTWA list will finally be able to fly a wide body? Does not sound fair to me.if they had treated them fairly there would be no need for a fence that lasts for 20 years. This is a wall not a fence and I hope the AT pilots take notice.

 

[IORFA]

Yes I am in aviation .I'm wondering about you? The TWA deal was BEFORE 911 .If it had happened after 911 that deal would probably never have happened.TWA would have been part of the loan program that saved USAir .Just facts TWA had an LAX 767 base also ..closed by AA .That 30 yr. 767capt. Has an AA seniority of 4900 now. It was 300 at TWA ..he is still capt on same jet after over 10yrs. AA pilot hired in the same year is 280 .But I'm sure you knew those facts. A TWA guy will be at the top of the list in 2020? What kind of argument is that? So after most of the original AA seniority list retires what's left of theTWA list will finally be able to fly a wide body? Does not sound fair to me.if they had treated them fairly there would be no need for a fence that lasts for 20 years. This is a wall not a fence and I hope the AT pilots take notice.

Thanks for the lesson on when TWA was purchased out of bankruptcy. I said TWA LLC, was gone around 2003. TWA was gone 4-10-2001. Been here through the whole debacle, but thanks. TWA and TWA LLC are 2 different companies. One pre-bankruptcy and the other after entering and AA purchase. TWA LLC was still around into 2003, can't remember when they actually completed the integration. Not really sure if TWA had a pilot base at the purchase, the F/A's didn't and AA claimed there were only 2 at the time of purchase. STL and NYC, maybe AA lied to us. Did they have satellite bases, you bet. Those aren't bases though, only satellites of STL or NYC. So your buddy isn't telling you the truth. Oh well, it happens. You intimate that it is a burden for some guy you know to be a 767 capt for over 10 years. What other options did TWA have at the time for this guy to upgrade to? I know, I know, NOTHING. So how has this persons work life changed? I mean he/her is making more money, still has a job, kept their seat and widebody, kept their sick time and kept vacation seniority for accrual and bidding. So, other than maybe not liking the commute to STL, I must be missing the problem. That is like me complaining after 20 years of shrinking, concessions and bankruptcies that 'How on gods green earth could you really make me be based in DFW?' Which by the way I get to keep my seniority to use in that base. Ask the Midwest guys how that offer would make them feel at this point. Just in case you don't pay attention to aviation news, Republic bought them, laid them all off and then let F9 fly their routes out of MKE. No fences or walls as you like to call them. Just NO jobs at all. Seriously, fact checking, research and just paying attention to your industry would really help you at this point. Taking what someone says as fact is a really bad thing to do in life. You can really get caught with your pants down. Try asking questions and ascertaining if they have an agenda that might corrupt their view before it corrupts yours as well. This is why there are so many ridiculous rumors that go around as if they are fact and the gospel. No one questions the absurd, only pass it along. No wonder we can't get a leg up on management with all the Rubes populating the seniority lists.

 

[eolesen]

Uh, this is the Southwest/Airtran forum...

I know the intent is to show the AT guys how bad an integration can be, and you've succeeded...

But please, can I suggest you take the rest of the TW/AA pissing match back over to AA where it can be promptly ignored?...