QA4Jet-A
Veteran
Could it also be a chance to get rid of some of the Classic 737s sooner and keep the 717s? Mx is already planning to build up a 717 Base in MCO and possibly ATL from what I hear but again, what you hear is 'Hear-say'!
SW/Airtran Seniority
- Thread starter Barrister
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555_in_PDX
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I was wondering if it was to all work groups. I am with 555 and we have yet to make any progress. Which brings me to the threats, was it all work groups or just the pilots?
jimntx
Veteran
Why is it so hard for all of you to believe that the pilots reached an agreement in a short amount of time? That, only through threats and coercion would it have been done this quickly. Southwest is not nor has it ever been known for the bitter labor strife that the rest of us seem to go through. Their employees welcome newcomers--whether from off the street or from another company. It's just the way they do things.
And, if I were an Airtran pilot and was offered a 40-50% increase in salary for my signature on an agreement? Well, I'd provide my own pen free of charge for use in the signing. The dangerous place to stand would be between me and that signature line.
And, if I were an Airtran pilot and was offered a 40-50% increase in salary for my signature on an agreement? Well, I'd provide my own pen free of charge for use in the signing. The dangerous place to stand would be between me and that signature line.
signals
Veteran
Amen 🙂
Couple of questions. As far as the senority integration, what does your calculation come to in terms of years? We have been hearing that it equates to approx. 6 years from the AT guys. Also hearing large raise for the AT guys and a small raise for the SWA guys. Heard about the fence around ALT. Also heard something about 1,000 shares of stock for the pilots as well.
The AMT's are very currious, as they may get something somewhat close to what the pilots recieved as far as the integration portion of it... Any more info would be great.
citrus jock
Advanced
Its not hard for me to believe that pilots could reach an agreement in a short amount of time; its just that that's not the version of events as told to me by one of our union officers. And as I stated in other posts, I don't believe that GK woke up one morning and said "I'm going to threaten the AirTran pilots today". I believe (based on what I was told) that he was simply stating that he might not wait around for very long to realize the profits from a full scale merger to materialize, while pilots bickered over the seniority list integration. I was told he said if necessary, he could make some moves that he, as the leader of both companies, can certainly make. Its also been said (by some in our union, NOT GK) that while Bond/McCaskill requires a fair & equitable seniority list to be formed, it does not require that the fair & equitable list be implemented. So, while I agree that SW doesn't have the "labor strife that the rest of us seem to go through", those of us who are AirTran employees understand that we are STILL AirTran employees, not SW employees. Until I have a SW employee number and have been through SW training, I can't and don't expect to be treated like one. While SWAPA is vigorously representing their pilots (as they should), and as long as SWAPA has a legal obligation to get as good of a SLI for SW pilots, which by definition is to my seniority detriment, I'm not going to be naive by expecting to be treated "nice". ALPA is duty bound (don't laugh former TWA guys) to defend my seniority. I've been through one merger before (as the acquiring carrier). The lesson I learned from that is that getting "wrapped around the axle" doesn't help. I would obviously love to be as high up on the combined list as possible. But I don't control that, and I'm just looking forward to getting this behind us and becoming a SW employee. As far as the 40% to 50% raise, I understand your sentiment Jim. I once went from one flying job to another and the new job came with a 400% raise. My thought at the time was, and I'm quoting myself, "I could retire here". My old job? Flight instructing, making $300/month. New job: First Officer on a Beech 99 at $1200/month. Another memory from my past: receiving a 20% raise (at AirTran) when a new contract was ratified in August of 2001. Two months later, a 48% pay cut (voted in by our union, myself included, in order to keep anyone from being furloughed). As I heard someone say recently, "Pay can go up or down. Seniority is forever." If I had gotten into this industry for the money, I would have quit a long time ago. If given a choice of a 50% pay raise or good seniority at SW, I'd take the seniority. That doesn't make anyone with the opposite view "wrong". My opinions are based on my experiences. Different experiences sometimes result in different views.
I agree 100% over pay vs seniority. Pay can be "made up" if you have your seniority. And usually all it takes is a court case to restore pay. Happened with Air Cal at AA. Pilot seniority merging is more difficult due to ratings and quals but it can be done. Much easier in the long run if everyone plays nice in the sandbox.
jimntx
Veteran
Yeah, and I once lived, paid rent, ate, and partied on $1.25/hr job I had. But, that was 1965-66. The problem with your analogy is that no one at AT is making $1200/mo as a full-time employee--not even the janitor, and certainly not the pilots. 40% of a pilot's pay is a healthy raise. And, though there are those who say pay can be "made up", that also assumes having amenable work rules and duty rigs. Pilots are not as able to pick up all the flying they may want. The government actually says they have to have some rest on occasion--unlike flight attendants.
As long as we are upright and our eyes are open, we are legal.I repeat...if you are an AT pilot and you are offered a 40-50% raise to sign on the dotted line, I urge you to sign. At the rate things are going WN is going to be one of the only airlines left flying. Then when all those pilots from the failed airlines apply at WN, you can be senior to them. It all works out in the end. 🙄
We all like to say "It's not the money. It's the principle of the thing." But, in the end, it's the MONEY.
citrus jock
Advanced
40% of a raise WOULD be great. But for me, no raise and higher seniority would be better. I'm not sure what pilots at what airline you're talking about that "are not as able to pick up all the flying they may want". I pick up all the flying I legally can (per FARs, as you alluded to), which usually equals all I want. But its my seniority that allows me to do that, assuming FARs are satisfied. At AirTran, our first period of open flying bidding is based on seniority. Vacation bidding is seniority based, as are lines of flying. As senior as I am at AirTran (not bragging, just showing an example of how seniority directly affects my pay), I am always able to bid for and receive a line of flying that has my week of vacation off already built into the line. With 4 weeks of vacation (paid at 22 hrs. per week) per year, I do this 4 months out of 12. If my line (with my week of vacation already counted as "off" days) is published as paying 80 hrs. with 17 days off, when you add the 22 hrs to that, for 4 months out of the year, I have a line with 17 days off that starts out paying over 100 hrs for the month. If I choose to, I can pick up a 4 day trip during my "vacation", and my line becomes 13 days off and pays over 120. With my seniority, I'm able to bid for and receive any week of vacation I want, a line that already has that week of vacation off, and pick up a nice paying 4 day trip during my vacation. If I wasn't as senior, I'd still receive weeks of vacation, but the chances of being awarded a line that has my entire week of vacation already off would be slim, as I'd have to be able to hold weekends off. Per our contract, if we are awarded a line of flying that touches a vacation period, we usually lose the pay value of the entire trip. So a less senior pilot awarded an 80 hr line and who wasn't able to bid around his vacation, loses the value of the 4 day trip (typically around 22 hrs), starts out at 58 hrs., and will get his 70 hr guarantee if he picks up nothing. If he picked up a 3 day trip worth 16 hrs, he'd get 74 hrs, or 4 more than if he picked up nothing. Our subsequent open flying pickup periods are "first come first serve", but by that time, all that's usually left is the "crumbs" of trips that no one wants. I'm not sure how these types of situations work at SW, so how their system works would be nice to know. Using the above examples, I take home more money at the end of the month by being "senior" and making 40% less than someone "junior" making 40% more. A pilot who doesn't care about the money and bids just for days off could intentionally bid a line that has 15 days off, has vacation during a week that he's supposed to be flying, have that 4 day trip removed, and wind up with 70 hrs of pay and 19 days off. There's all kinds of ways to "game the system", but my experience is that if you want to "game" it for money, it helps being senior. When I consider how much money I "make", I look at my paystub and my bring-home, not my hourly rate. So yes, it is "the money", but I'd rather be able to say that I made $17,000 for the month (at $140 per hr) than to say I made $14000 for the month (at $196 per hr). I'm willing to work more to make more. And I may well vote to "sign on the dotted line". I just need to see and hear the details when they're released, and then I'll make my decision. Believe me, I'm grateful for the pay raise I stand to receive (mine will be about 26%). But my gratitude doesn't necessitate "rolling over" when it comes to my seniority. If its "all about the money", and I need my seniority to make more money than a less senior pilot at the same rate or a less senior pilot at a higher rate, than my seniority is "all about the money".Yeah, and I once lived, paid rent, ate, and partied on $1.25/hr job I had. But, that was 1965-66. The problem with your analogy is that no one at AT is making $1200/mo as a full-time employee--not even the janitor, and certainly not the pilots. 40% of a pilot's pay is a healthy raise. And, though there are those who say pay can be "made up", that also assumes having amenable work rules and duty rigs. Pilots are not as able to pick up all the flying they may want. The government actually says they have to have some rest on occasion--unlike flight attendants.
I repeat...if you are an AT pilot and you are offered a 40-50% raise to sign on the dotted line, I urge you to sign. At the rate things are going WN is going to be one of the only airlines left flying. Then when all those pilots from the failed airlines apply at WN, you can be senior to them. It all works out in the end. 🙄
We all like to say "It's not the money. It's the principle of the thing." But, in the end, it's the MONEY.
QA4Jet-A
Veteran
Good to see you around CJ. As far as my small work group, we are ok with what's going on. We are all Salaried and not represented by anyone. We have all been given letters with an op to join the WN Team, which we all have. We get to stay in ATL, at our current pay rate, and are looking forward to working with our co-workers. The only small downside is I lose five days vacation but, gain four Holidays so, losing eight hours of free time I can live with. None of us know how we will blend in Seniority wise and I could care less. I am most Senior at FL in my Dept and if I fall, so be it. I just want my third week in March off so I can go to the 12 Hours of Sebring 😀
Kev3188
Veteran
Agreed.
Translation: Better seniority= higher QOL.
Translation: Better seniority= higher QOL.
jimntx
Veteran
Ok, so I recommend that you fight this merger tooth and nail. Maybe it won't go through, and you won't have to endure working at a WN "subsidiary" at substantially more pay than you are making now. Are you sure that
FL is being sold to WN because it's a good deal for the stockholders, and not because FL can no longer make it as a standalone company?
Are you willing to risk ALL of your seniority on that possibility? If WN walks away from this deal, and FL goes under, your blessed seniority will be worth zero. It won't count for zip at the unemployment office. They are strictly first come, first served. Then when you go to WN (or any other airline) to apply for a job, you will start at the bottom of the seniority list--assuming you can get hired. There's going to be a lot of out of work pilots in the future as airlines keep pulling back from non-profitable flying, and as the military keeps creating young, highly trained pilots who will work for less. And, remember you are highly experienced in flying an airplane that is no longer built (according to Wikipedia only 156 were EVER built), and other airlines (including mine) are getting rid of them (the DC-9 and all its derivatives) as quickly as possible. I'm not judgin'. I'm just sayin'.
citrus jock
Advanced
Apparently, you're not understanding my response to your post about money being everything. You've taken my example, not proof by any means, but one simple example of how a higher pay rate with less seniority would result in less money than a lower pay rate with higher seniority, and you've turned that into I should be against the merger. After doing that, you ask the question that you could have asked before you reveal the startling news that if I don't have a job at SW or FL, my former seniority will be worth nothing and I'll have to start over. Gee Jim, I've only been in this industry for 20something years, and I thought if I got laid off, I could just waltz on over to Delta and demand to be placed on their seniority list wherever I choose. I didn't know you couldn't do that. 🙄 Am I willing to risk all of my seniority? Depends on what "possibility" you're referring to. The possibility of not having a job? That possibility has always existed, with every airline job I've ever had. Its come true a few times. If the offer our pilots received was for all of us to be stapled to the most junior SW pilot, would I risk all of my seniority? Hell yes, cause in that scenario, I wouldn't have much to lose. If you are aware of the details of what's been presented to our pilots in the form of a merged list, by all means let me know. Then I'll be able to more accurately answer your question. Until then, I'll do like I said I would do before and wait for the details to come out before deciding how I'll vote. I'm really not one of those "vote for it in order to see what's in it" types, but if you are, good for you. As to your ramblings about the limited number of 717s and DC9 retirements, per the contract I fly under, my SENIORITY would allow for every 717 to be disposed of and every pilot junior to me, whether on the 717 or the 737 to be furloughed before it would affect me. In that scenario, how much good would any pay rate do me if I weren't SENIOR enough to not be furloughed. Your example is another one of how SENIORITY would allow me to continue getting a paycheck and the lack of SENIORITY would result in no paycheck. As to another question you asked, I can't tell you "why" SW decided to purchase FL. I was told by a higher up in FL that neither company was seeing any growth opportunities, and this deal allowed for that. Without going so far as saying FL would have never gone out of business, I can say we weren't anywhere near going out of business. One of the lowest CASM in the industry and hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank (IIRC) isn't a case of imminent unable to be a standalone airline. We didn't come to them; they came to us. In closing, I can't understand why its so hard for you to say "Hey we disagree" and leave it at that. The attitude of indignation that someone dares to disagree with your "sign of the dotted line/take the money at all costs" attitude is humorous. I gave you examples of actual situations (monthly bidding, vacation bidding, open time pick up) that I've run into where seniority trumps pay rate. The example you chose to use (the type of plane I'm currently flying) also shows that seniority trumps pay. Want to leave it at "we disagree, have a nice day"?Ok, so I recommend that you fight this merger tooth and nail. Maybe it won't go through, and you won't have to endure working at a WN "subsidiary" at substantially more pay than you are making now. Are you sure that
FL is being sold to WN because it's a good deal for the stockholders, and not because FL can no longer make it as a standalone company?
Are you willing to risk ALL of your seniority on that possibility? If WN walks away from this deal, and FL goes under, your blessed seniority will be worth zero. It won't count for zip at the unemployment office. They are strictly first come, first served. Then when you go to WN (or any other airline) to apply for a job, you will start at the bottom of the seniority list--assuming you can get hired. There's going to be a lot of out of work pilots in the future as airlines keep pulling back from non-profitable flying, and as the military keeps creating young, highly trained pilots who will work for less. And, remember you are highly experienced in flying an airplane that is no longer built (according to Wikipedia only 156 were EVER built), and other airlines (including mine) are getting rid of them (the DC-9 and all its derivatives) as quickly as possible. I'm not judgin'. I'm just sayin'.
jimntx
Veteran
Yes, and a proposed fence around ATL for 10 years wouldn't give you sufficient protection? Besides WN furloughs only as a last resort. It's part of their culture that employees come first. The point I was trying to make is that WN is a wonderful company to work for regardless of your seniority. I know a LOT of people who work there. I've never met an unhappy WN employee, and I live in Dallas where you can't turn around without bumping into one of them.
I reiterate...if a number is more important to you than pay, then go for it. Fight the proposed seniority integration agreement tooth and nail. Hope it makes you feel great. Knock yourself out. You might want to ask some US Airways pilots how fighting a binding arbitration (that they demanded) is working for them.
I reiterate...if a number is more important to you than pay, then go for it. Fight the proposed seniority integration agreement tooth and nail. Hope it makes you feel great. Knock yourself out. You might want to ask some US Airways pilots how fighting a binding arbitration (that they demanded) is working for them.
citrus jock
Advanced
A 10 year fence would would cover me very well. In fact, if the rumors that I've heard are true, the 717 would be operated like a separate airline within SW as far as bidding and schedules. At the end of the fence, my total seniority loss, relative from what it is now, would be a paltry 3% (that's also a rumor). Again, nothing official has been released. If these rumors are true, the only thing keeping me from voting for this would be a lack of language preventing the fences and everything else agreed to from being altered prior to their promised ending date. I understand everything you're saying about WN fuloughs, and about their culture and happy employees. What you may not have heard is examples of animosity between the 2 groups (SW pilots with bag tags that say "Hired, not acquired"). I'm hoping that instances of what I mentioned are isolated to a minority and are rare. I can assure you I'm looking forward to working there and being treated, by their management, in a manner in which I'm sadly not used to. A number to me is no more important than the pay, and the pay is no more important than the number. I was just trying to show examples of how both are interconnected. I'm not fighting anything. I've only stated my desire to know the facts before casting my vote, instead of my vote being based on rumors.
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