stop the outsourcing?

[topDawg]

PMUS already overhauls the A320 family in CLT and PIT.
 
PMAA is training their mechanics in TUL on the A320 family, and they dont undergo their S-check until six years.
 
They get a C1 through C12 check during that six year period, with most of them being overnight and the higher checks are three to five days.
 
And PMAA doesnt have any 787s yet, and they wont need heavy for a long time, and AA has brought back the 757s and 767s to TUL and not farming them out.
 
Dont let the facts get in your way there WT aka spinmaster.

and the AMTs don't even have a contract. With all the engines US sends out, AA might not be able to ship out the 787/32S checks.....
 

The spinmaster would be whoever refuses to acknowledge that US has the highest percentage of maintenance outsourcing of the 4 legacy carriers - since AA and US still report separately.

Of course, we can cue the "the IAM saved airframe overhauls" but they obviously allowed US to outsource far more work that is clearly more valuable.
Two BKs do that. WN and US have also been slowly but surely getting work back. Even AA is getting work back. Delta is losing more and more work. 
 

uh..... productivity in the airline industry is measured by the amount of AMSs produced by a given number of workers. AA/US has resulted in the largest workforce in the US airline industry and yet they aren't producing enough ASMs to generate anywhere near the productivity that DL or UA or WN does.
That doesn't mean they are overstaffed. Good example, AA is going to probably end up with more maintenance employees than DL because of the amount of work that is done in house and the type of work done in house. 
 
Overstaffed is when you have to many employees for the work you have. It isn't if you have more employees then your peers.  
Yes, AA/US is bringing work back in right now because the alternative is to lay people off - something Parker is not willing to do yet.
So your telling me, Parker is keeping employees around just because he is a nice guy? Get off the drugs WT. AA is bringing work back in-house cause they are finding out the same thing Delta already knows, outsourcing things like Airframe work ends up costing more for s**t work. 
​the difference is Parker isn't going to keep the work out of house just because. Anderson is. (and a big part of that is Parker has seen a trend that more and more work is coming back in house, Delta does whatever it wants.)  
What can't be changed or denied is that AA/US' labor costs are growing far faster than DL or UA's which means that AA/US either becomes uncompetitive or cuts jobs or keeps employees paid below average.
no that is not what it means. What it means is AA's labor cost can grow till they get with-in range of their peers. It because comes a problem when AA catches up to DL, till then it isn't an issue. 
For someone who touts their business acumen gained at UGa, it should be pretty easy to see.
It is easy to see. You clearly don't have the smallest clue in the world what your talking about. It is almost painful at this point......
new AA is doing what it can to balance a whole lot of competing demands but the bottom line is that AA will cut jobs or become uncompetitive relative to its peers.
no that isn't the bottom line. It is in your mind because you believe Delta is the only way to be.....But fact is as long as AA keeps making the profits it is making then they can increase costs. 
There is no other option.

And anyone that thinks that AA is going to maintain the same size of maintenance workforce for a fleet of far newer aircraft compared to what they have today is quite simply detached from reality.you talk a lot for someone who doesn't know anything about maintenance. 
This would be true, if AA parked all the S80s tomorrow and had new replacements. However, AA isn't doing that. With the slow replacements, by the time S80 really drys up it will be time to start checks on the new 737s coming in. By the time 757 work drys up it will be time to start A320 work. It normally takes 2 years for the first long term checks to start. It wont be overhauls but they will still need lines for light c checks. 

 
 

removing real estate limits the size of the operation. period. Unless you and others can show that AA underused its existing maintenance facilities, if they removed something in BK, the size of the maintenance operation will shrink.
but AA didn't really remove real estate. AFW did shut down, but DWH is not nearly used like it could be or was by Delta. 
 
AA planned the closing of AFW years ago, it was over when they got the Delta hangar.......
It is hardly a consolation that AA is keeping some of the 757/767 work given that there appears to be no change in AA's plans to rapidly retire that fleet just as UA is doing.
but it will bridge the employees till the A320s and 787s need work. That is the point that you are missing. AA went to being over staffed in TULE to no longer being so. Once the 757/767 work finally does go away the Airbus will have been around long enough to need time in tail docks. 
It is possible that AA could retain 757s as DL intends to do perhaps even beyond the 56 or so 757s plus 753s but it would take a fairly good sized effort on AA's part to retain 757s for a significant period of time for the increased maintenance to be meaningful overall.
AA is going to keep around 30 757s around for International flying. 
AA not only hasn't changed its plans to outsource current widebody overhauls but they also have given no indication that they intend to have those capabilities for the 787s and 350s or for the 320 family aircraft.
bring the 767s back in-house is in fact a change. That means only one type of HMV is gone. Not nearly the big deal you are making it. 
The 787 and 350 maintenance support can't be developed overnight.
yeah it basically can. For the most part AA has the tooling to do the checks, now all they have to do is send people to school on it. 
As with all things, we can check back on what happens in a few years but the chances are very high given Parker's propensity for maintenance outsourcing that AA maintenance will be smaller than the sum of AA plus US maintenance at the time of the merger.
​Your assuming the Mechanics are going to give up work then. I'll be happy to take that bet. New airplanes or not AA still has a cap on how much maintenance is done out of house.   
Further, AA did close its own ramp in a number of cities; gaining a few cities back as a result of the merger hardly undoes all of the loss of mainline stations.
numbers please......
There are a lot of moving parts with the merger that will take years to finally be determined but increased outsourcing at AA over the long term is a given.
no it isn't. Again, this isn't Delta. AA can't just do whatever they feel like. It will have to be made with the unions. I don't see AA's unions pulling a United and shipping off all of their non-hub work. I could be wrong, but I don't see it. (and if they do it will be because they voted for it.)
Unions have simply not demonstrated that they can completely and permanently stop outsourcing which is why making claims that DL employees are more affected while union employees are protected simply is not accurate - and DL employees know the difference.
How haven't they? United's Unions have sucked, US has gained work post BK. AA seems to be gaining work post BK and WN has slowly but surely been adding work. I think they are up to 4 HMV lines on the 737 now? not bad for an airline that had none not to long ago. 
there simply is no measure that unions or their supporters can use to say that DL employees are worse off than their peers at any airline.
Yeah there are plenty. You just don't want to look at them because no matter what anyone says, Union bad Delta better than God himself. 
as for Kev's comment about child labor, there are kids who can morally and legally do jobs for which they can be paid.

I'm not sure I would ding Kev on the basis of child labor but rather for the "if I can't get mine" mindset... which is exactly how DL has managed to increase the RRs which Kev so much hates. DL is doing what it is doing because there is a willing market... no different than his willingness to hire someone outside of the "preferred" system which is full-time, benefitted adult workers.

are we really comparing cutting grass to airline employees? smh 
 

and you still hold onto the mistaken notion that airframe overhauls are the benchmark of outsourcing when DL outsources less total maintenance than UA, US, or WN.
For employees they are the benchmark. But we can talk about other things too if you want, Question, how many Airbus landing gear 747 landing gear, 717 landing gear, 777 landing gear does Delta do in house? none. 
PMAA does, AFAIK, every type of landing gear in house as well as landing gear on RJs. 
 
How about engines, how many engines does AA send out? (none) how many does Delta send out? GE90, T800s, PW4000-100s, V2500s, BR715s........
good for the IAM to protect a few jobs with airframe overhauls but they let the far more valuable work go right out the door.
what work are they letting go that is valuable? Engine work is not valuable at all to employees. Delta could ship off the engine shops today and bring back overhauls of the fleets and have to hire a metric s**t ton of people. Airplanes mean work, Engines not so much. 
Of course TUL will do some Airbus maintenance.... the question is how much.
no it isn't of course. Tulsa isn't Atlanta or Minny. They are clearly gearing up for long term visits because AA isn't going to send an Airbus up to TULE for an overnight check when they can do it in Dallas. 
Until AA overhauled 320s start rolling out the door, there is no assurance that work will be retained in-house.

The 787 is due to arrive shortly.
and will take 6-8 years before they have to have an overhaul at least. Depending on the MX plan it could be longer than that. 
The lack of protection for that work and the history AA and US both have of outsourcing maintenance would hardly make it a surprise that those aircraft are heavily outsourced as well.
but it isn't that simple. AA can't just do whatever they want like Delta can. If they ship off 787 overhauls it will have to fit into the SCOPE of the AA contract. 
I have a feeling you will be as wrong about outsourcing of jobs as you are about the boarding priority process and your statements that defined contribution retirement programs aren't considered pensions.

 
 

Spreading lies again. It took a bankruptcy court to abrogate the CBA in 2005 for the ability to outsource. The IAM was successful in 2008 to bring 50% of HMV billable hours done in-house, from 2005 till 2008 the company could have outsourced everything. There are more jobs connected to HMV than component overhaul. And let's see how about those hangars that DL/NW shutdown, DFW, MSP, DUL, ATL, TPA, am I leaving any out? Stop with the lies, the A350 isn't coming into the fleet till 2017 and the 787 isn't going into revenue service till the end of the year and won't need HMV for several years or more. And what does a 401k or flight benefits have to do with the topic? Once again throw crap into the debate to distract that you are wrong, once again.

Delta shut down hangars in LAX, ORD, TPA, ATL, DFW and LGA. NW had hangars in CMH, DLH, ATL, ORD and MSP that have all been shut down. 
 

there are no lies.

the IAM saved some jobs but the highest value work is outsourced. If you can't grasp that economics dictates that the most valuable work will result in the highest compensation for those who do that work, then I can't help you. and neither can anyone else.

The IAM has managed to hold the company to an agreement that is counter to the company's best financial interests.

they will outsource where it makes the most sense. you saved a few overhaul jobs and allowed the company to outsource far more work both in quantity and value. They won.

DL had no hangar in CMH. CVG perhaps but DL never did schedule heavy maintenance there.

again, unions have done nothing to stop the amount of outsourcing - which is why DL employees don't buy the feeble arguments you two come up with.

I have a feeling we'll be discussing the outsourced maintenance not just on the 787 and 350 as wellas 320 overhauls as well.

Delta still has the CVG hangar. 
 

...And at DL, the work can be changed "at any time, for any reason." There is no cap, and there's really nothing saying high value component work (or HMV, for that matter) will stay.

 
this. 

You are so thick headed its pathetic, DL outsources ALL their airframe overhauls, ALL, is that too hard to comprehend?
 
They fly planes half way around the world for cabin mods.
 
PMUS and PMAA overhaul more of their own fleet than anyother US Based Airline.
Those are facts.
 
They fly empty planes to LHR to get bug sprayed.

FWIW that bug spray thing is a EPA thing. Can't do it in the States. 
 
Also they re-timed LAX-SYD so that it can be done in SYD now. AFAIK they aren't doing it in London anymore. 
 

I'm jumping nothing.... but this is what you wrote.


and as much as you or he wants to think otherwise, DL and NW do not have a shared history, unless of course you would like to acknowledge that DL developed the Great Circle Route from the US to Asia via Alaska and the N. Pacific.

 
 

sorry if I missed it, but did you acknowledge that the notion that unions do a better job of protecting jobs from outsourcing isn't valid?

since the original basis of the thread was that somehow DL's outsourcing is connected with terrorism and E pretty well established that notion is rubbish, maybe it is time to lock this one up?

but it isn't. AA, even after BK is only sending out 1 aircraft type for overhauls now(777s). Delta is sending out all of its fleet. (and when you compare components I believe AA does more in-house and they don't have any engines that are sent out for overhauls, Delta has a ton of components (Seats, landing gear etc) done out of house as well as about half of the engine types in the fleet)  

 

[eolesen]

since the original basis of the thread was that somehow DL's outsourcing is connected with terrorism and E pretty well established that notion is rubbish, maybe it is time to lock this one up?

In other words, you've realized that you've dug a really deep hole, and now you need the moderators to lock the thread so you can save face?...

Classic.

 

[southwind]

What a ridiculous (and typical) example. How come the RWNJ's all use this one?

At any rate, I'll go with C: Assuming I'm not going to do it myself, I'll hire the neighborhood kid saving up for school (or whatever), and pay him directly.

Good job avoiding the question!

 

[topDawg]

perfect... the IAM saves job, the company saves money.

I can't imagine why US could be happier.

Can you tell us how US manages to spend less money outsourcing higher value work compared to DL which does just the opposite?

Delta isn't doing just the opposite though. You don't listen to anyone. 
 
Delta's engine shop is full of dying engines, only the CFM56 has a longish term future. the 2037, 219, CF6 and Pratt 4000s are all on the way out..........and minus a major capital project that would have to be started soon (a new test cell) Delta is going to outsource its 747/767 replacement engine. 

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

In other words, you've realized that you've dug a really deep hole, and now you need the moderators to lock the thread so you can save face?...Classic.

I guess that is better than having to sustain the barrage of body blows inflicted by dawg.

Ouch! That was painful to read.

I am surprised that anyone is still willing to take him to task any more on his bloviating. All have given up in proving him wrong on his cyclonic spin long ago.

Kudos to topDawg.

Uga has more bite than bark.

 

[WorldTraveler]

In other words, you've realized that you've dug a really deep hole, and now you need the moderators to lock the thread so you can save face?...

Classic.

no. Kev wants me to stop discussing the issue of outsourcing which got thrown into a discussion about MN, terrorism, and outsourced ground handling.

None of you, Dawg, or Q has managed to provide one shred of evidence that DL employees are worse off than their peers at other carriers who have unions when it comes to outsourcing.

They are doing it all and growing their outsourcing at faster rates than DL.

 
 

Delta isn't doing just the opposite though. You don't listen to anyone. 
 
Delta's engine shop is full of dying engines, only the CFM56 has a longish term future. the 2037, 219, CF6 and Pratt 4000s are all on the way out..........and minus a major capital project that would have to be started soon (a new test cell) Delta is going to outsource its 747/767 replacement engine.

you missed the point. sigh.

Engine and component work IS higher value work than airframe overhauls.

Given your long-standing comments on here about DL's policies regarding airframe outsourcing, it isn't a surprise that you line up with your union brothers.

What you can't deny is that DL is using its own maintenance capabilities to insource revenue - something other US carriers do not do anywhere near to the same degree. DL clearly sees its maintenance capabilities not just as a cost to run its own airline but also a revenue generating capability.

And based on that plus the costs of doing airframe overhauls, DL sends out work that US keeps and vice versa.

As for AA and its labor costs, the latest quarterly reports shows they spend slightly less than DL as a percent of revenues and total expenses but their costs are increasing at a far faster rate such that their total labor costs will surpass DL's. Further, if AA labor is really making any gains as part of the merger agreements, then their costs will go up even more.

AA's costs as a percent of revenue and total costs ARE very likely to exceed DL's and be right back where they were before AA declared BK - and that is even considering all of the lower paid US workers that still have a lot of salary growth built into their careers.

If you take the total maintenance outsourcing for AA and US as a combined unit, is almost identical to what DL has right now.

And DL's outsourcing over the past few years has been heavily driven by the amount of cabin overhauls it has done.

The notion that DL is increasing outsourcing while other carriers are reducing it is pure fiction.

DL is adding aircraft to its fleet, including older aircraft that require maintenance. DL might not do engine overhauls on the 717s because they can't and those aircraft came delivered with updated heavy checks - but the net gain in DL's fleet driven by retired regional jets is resulting in less outsourced and more in-house DL work - not just for maintenance but for DL employees as a whole.

Given that the "big' unionization drive is with the FAs, they and the pilots are the workgroup that are being most helped by DL's fleet plan.

as for your list of engines that AA sends out, you conveniently omit that the RR engines are done by TAESL, not AA. DL CAN'T do a whole lot of those engines which you "accuse" them of sending out.

whether you think engines have life potential or not has nothing to do with the fact that they require work TODAY.

you can harp on your union soapbox all you want but you haven't proven that DL employees are worse off by outsourcing or that AA will do any better as a result of the merger and the new labor agreements.

 

[Kev3188]

no. Kev wants me to stop discussing the issue of outsourcing which got thrown into a discussion about MN, terrorism, and outsourced ground handling.

It takes a special kind of narcissist to arrive at that conclusion based on what I've posted here.

By all means feel free to post away. At the same time, I'll thank you in advance for not feeling free to put words in my mouth...

 

[WorldTraveler]

well I am sorry if what you wrote allowed any other conclusion that what I wrote.

You can stop digging anytime you'd like.

if the discussion is not about MN immigrants and terrorism, the outsourcing is fair game and everyone else here seems more than happy to jump into it

I'm not sure what digging you want me to avoid but I'm trying to see where you or your union crowd has shown anything that says that DL employees are worse off than their peers at other airlines.

care to toss something into the ring that will cinch your argument?

 

[Kev3188]

Maybe you should "see" people trying to save you from yourself.
 
...Or not. Either or. 
 
(shrugs)

 

[Kev3188]

Good job avoiding the question!

 
Giving a response you hadn't hoped for =/= avoiding the question.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Maybe you should "see" people trying to save you from yourself.
 
...Or not. Either or. 
 
(shrugs)

thanks for the concern but....

all I am really interested in is some evidence that DL employees are worse off than their peers at unionized airlines when it comes to outsourcing.

I have yet to see any evidence that unionized employees have gained a real and lasting advantage or that DL has given away jobs that other airlines haven't also given away, often in much larger numbers.

the only "save" would be to provide that evidence one way or another.

 

[topDawg]

no. Kev wants me to stop discussing the issue of outsourcing which got thrown into a discussion about MN, terrorism, and outsourced ground handling.

None of you, Dawg, or Q has managed to provide one shred of evidence that DL employees are worse off than their peers at other carriers who have unions when it comes to outsourcing.

They are doing it all and growing their outsourcing at faster rates than DL.
what in the hell are you talking about? AA is bringing in work, not increasing it. How many times do you have to be told that. 
 
 

you missed the point. sigh.

Engine and component work IS higher value work than airframe overhauls.
for Delta yes. 
Given your long-standing comments on here about DL's policies regarding airframe outsourcing, it isn't a surprise that you line up with your union brothers.
Anyone who.....well likes to have a job....would line up for me. As any Delta AMT about the outsourced work. They all know its horse crap. The issue is, as we have seen with people like southwind, all that anyone does when someone brings up a union is OMG UNION DUES!!!!! 
 
but you'll make more than you do now
 
BUT THE UNION DUES AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH THEY WILL KILL US ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
That is because a lot of people in the south simply don't understand how unions work. they also don't take the time to educate themselves on things. How many people think the AMFA sucks for the NW strike, How many people think the IAM suck for the Eastern strike? Now how many people who know the real history think that? how many people who went on strike do you know who say they suck? I haven't talked to a single NW person or a single EA person who would do it over. Who blame the union. 
 
but people like you, who don't know what your talking about, are constantly driving fear into people.
What you can't deny is that DL is using its own maintenance capabilities to insource revenue - something other US carriers do not do anywhere near to the same degree. DL clearly sees its maintenance capabilities not just as a cost to run its own airline but also a revenue generating capability.
for now that is true. Bet it isn't 20 years from now when the engine shop is basically gone. 
And based on that plus the costs of doing airframe overhauls, DL sends out work that US keeps and vice versa.
The cost of overhauls is not why they do it. They do it because they are scared of wall street. Delta is the only major US airline that doesn't do any overhauls in house. 
 
​and Delta could be just as successful as AF or LH (and now BA/IB) at running an MRO if they wanted to, but they don't. In the US it is bad to get away from your core, that is exactly why Delta shipped overhauls out.  
As for AA and its labor costs, the latest quarterly reports shows they spend slightly less than DL as a percent of revenues and total expenses but their costs are increasing at a far faster rate such that their total labor costs will surpass DL's. Further, if AA labor is really making any gains as part of the merger agreements, then their costs will go up even more.
Again, they are so far below us they are going to see massive increase in cost. 
 
I will say AA has an issue in MX, they have way to many people per plane. I would advise them to work with Parker to get productivity up.....but I don't know if they are smart enough to do so. They could easily copy Delta in the MRO model, and because of the things they could offer they could easily become larger than DL.  
AA's costs as a percent of revenue and total costs ARE very likely to exceed DL's and be right back where they were before AA declared BK - and that is even considering all of the lower paid US workers that still have a lot of salary growth built into their careers.

If you take the total maintenance outsourcing for AA and US as a combined unit, is almost identical to what DL has right now.
unlikely. I want to see that number once the 757s and 767s come back in house. 
And DL's outsourcing over the past few years has been heavily driven by the amount of cabin overhauls it has done.
no it hasn't. Mods count but no, Delta has been increasing work they send out outside of short term mods. Things line engine lines going out of house aren't part of cabin mods. 
The notion that DL is increasing outsourcing while other carriers are reducing it is pure fiction.
no it isn't. I see AA bringing 2 fleet types of overhauls in house. 
 
I did see that Delta ordered 20 more engines.......for GE to overhaul for them. I saw 88 717s that AAR is working on. 160+ BR715s Delta is sending to Rolls. 
DL is adding aircraft to its fleet, including older aircraft that require maintenance. DL might not do engine overhauls on the 717s because they can't and those aircraft came delivered with updated heavy checks - but the net gain in DL's fleet driven by retired regional jets is resulting in less outsourced and more in-house DL work - not just for maintenance but for DL employees as a whole.
what do you "they can't?" Delta can overhaul any engine that is a jet and produces less the 70K worth of thrust. Add a test cell they could overhaul any jet engine they wanted. 
and no, parking of the RJs hurt TechOps. Those BR715 engines Rolls is overhauling are replacing TechOps overhauled engines. The V2500s that came with MD90s that replaced DC9s and 757s cost Delta 2037s and JT8 overhauls with no replacement. 
Given that the "big' unionization drive is with the FAs, they and the pilots are the workgroup that are being most helped by DL's fleet plan.

as for your list of engines that AA sends out, you conveniently omit that the RR engines are done by TAESL, not AA. DL CAN'T do a whole lot of those engines which you "accuse" them of sending out.
WT, WT, WT, tell me.....TAESL who exactly are the employees at TAESL. Who do they really work for? 
TAESL is simply Delta TechOps. Call it pink furry chick liver MRO all you want to, but it is AA mechanics working under the AA/TWU working agreement on the American Mechanic seniority list.  I don't care if Delta wants to call the MRO "all the people that work here suck MRO" as long as I am a Delta employee my give a crap is at zero. So yes, AA does every engine in the fleet in house. We do not know about the GE90 or V2500s. (or I guess the CFM56-5Bs) but it will be a while before those engines come off wing for overhauls. (normally 4-6 years) 
 
and what do you mean Delta can't do those engines? Delta has 120 engines it can't do because they can't be run in the current test cell. (T800, GE90, PW4000-100s and the CF6-80-10E). the Trent 800s and GE90s don't have the economy of scale to do them in house. (however, I believe Delta pissed away a great chance with the GE90. Now MROs for them are popping up all over the place, but when they were limited Delta had a chance to lock in contracts....) The Prat 4000s do, the CF6s I am not sure if they can be ran down the same line as the 80C2s or not. If they can then they have the economy in scale to do them in house. 
 
However my beef is not with those engines for the most part, it is with the V2500 (130 engines) and the BR715s (175 engines) that can very easily be done in house.  So i would love for you to explain why Delta "CANT" do these engines..... 
whether you think engines have life potential or not has nothing to do with the fact that they require work TODAY.
yes it does. we could be a month or so away from Delta ending a large part of its MRO work..... it may drawn down but if a power by the hour agreement is signed as i expect for the widebody order that is going to bye-bye for the engine shop minus the CFMs. 
you can harp on your union soapbox all you want but you haven't proven that DL employees are worse off by outsourcing or that AA will do any better as a result of the merger and the new labor agreements.
I have time and time again. you refuse to listen. 

 

[topDawg]

I'm jumping nothing.... but this is what you wrote.


and as much as you or he wants to think otherwise, DL and NW do not have a shared history, unless of course you would like to acknowledge that DL developed the Great Circle Route from the US to Asia via Alaska and the N. Pacific.

I missed this before. 
 
In this case they very well do have a shared history. NW dumping the work they did is a huge reason Delta is in the mess it is. 
 
and funny the brain children of those very ideas at NW are now running the show at Delta. 

 

[700UW]

TopDawg,
 
Your posts are awesome!

 

[WorldTraveler]

I missed this before. 
 
In this case they very well do have a shared history. NW dumping the work they did is a huge reason Delta is in the mess it is. 
 
and funny the brain children of those very ideas at NW are now running the show at Delta.

what's funny is that you and others fail to acknowledge that there is a large portion of DL's leadership that has had nothing to do with NW.

what's sad is that you and the union pearl clutchers can't recognize that the biggest increase in NW's outsourcing came as a result of a failed strike that put 5000 highly paid AMT's on the street.

DL had nothing to do with that action.

DL had nothing to do with a number of the actions that NW made, both good and bad.

It is no more accurate to include NW's actions pre-merger in DL's history than it is for DL to claim that they pioneered routes to Asia over the N. Pacific.

Anyone who wants a fair and accurate reading of history knows that was done by NW, just as NW fought off a leverage buy out, gained state guarantees - some of which they walked away from, and then fought off labor unions.

DL did none of those things.

and the CEO who broke AMFA at NW doesn't work in the airline industry, let alone at DL.


and you also recognize that the top 2 leaders at DL who are directly responsible for MRO not only didn't come from NW but haven't been at any other legacy carrier since 1987 - more than 25 years.

What DL is doing in MRO services was developed at DL and with experience that is far beyond working at airlines. Period.