stop the outsourcing?

[topDawg]

Right, so it's NOT the company's fault for hiring them. Got it.

 
don't know what you expect the company to do. 
 
I know if they weren't here they wouldn't be getting hired though. 

Guess you still don't get it! If they weren't here to begin with, it'd be kinda hard for a company to hire them. Like I said, blame your Leader for lost American jobs, on American soil.
 
Next!

bingo. 
 

and yet DL's competitors - all of whom have unionized ramp - are eliminating locations where the ramp is worked by their own employees.
​wait what? didn't AA just announce new work? 
it would dramatically help your argument if AA, UA and WN were increasing the number of stations where their own employees work the ramp but that isn't happening.
​the only airline actively cutting in United. that is the IAMs fault. No one is going to disagree they f**ked up. Has nothing to do with Delta though 
Hard to expect DL to raise the bar with your arguments for unions when unionized carriers aren't doing it.
​So Delta is a follower?  



if you'd like to talk about BK, the simple fact is that a smaller percentage of DL employees lost their jobs in Bk than any other airline from 9/11 until each carrier's BK except AA... and we haven't seen the effect of AA yet.
because Delta has less employees to lose. When you look at the ramp at PMDL it was a joke before BK (thanks to 7.5) AA/UA etc didn't have a chance to make cuts, Delta has been making cuts for 15 years. 
AA maintenance did have a higher percentage of in-house maintenance but they are outsourcing most of the maintenance on their new aircraft so the number of mechanics is bound to go down over time. It is hardly consolation to argue that AA mechanics are gaining overhauls on aircraft that the company intends to replace with new aircraft.
Few things, AA is doing overhauls on 737s, which are new. however AA hasn't said yet who is doing 787 or 32S overhauls. I do believe that AA AMTs have said they are being sent to Airbus school though. they aren't sending people in Tulsa to AB school for s**ts and giggles. sounds like they are going to be at least doing some of that work in-house. 
 
and will still do more work in house than Delta. 
And the reason why AA's labor costs is going up is NOT just because US employees were underpaid; AA's own employees are receiving pay raises in return for their support of the merger.
its both. They are still unpaid compared to Delta.....and will still be going up. Everyone knows it, for some reason you keep pointing it out. Sky is blue too WT, don't need to see it posted every 5 seconds. 
Let's see what the cost of the new labor agreements that AA is announcing are. if there is no increase in costs, then you seriously have to wonder what the unions accomplished. if there is no loss of jobs, then AA will continually to be grossly overstaffed.
Where are you getting that AA is overstaffed? I haven't seen AA point to that at all. 
and the agreements with Parker promised pay raises for everyone IIRC. 
IF, as is expected, AA's unions did gain some pay raises in return for less job security, then the likely result is that AA's labor costs will go up in exchange for fewer jobs and the ability for the company to integrate labor.
wait what? where are you getting this? Pretty sure AA and the unions made the agreements with Parker public. I don't remember anyone giving up work......
The notion that AA accepted higher pay for existing workers while maintaining jobs while the labor unions achieved both is incompatible wth long term financial viability for AA.
Again how are you coming up with that? 
The proof will be in the results and the chances are very high that AA is exchanging higher labor costs for the ability to peacefully integrate their workforces - something UA did not do - but the end result is likely that AA and UA will both lose a significant chunk of their cost competitiveness with other carriers.
Okay....but do you think that Delta is going to be able to sit around and not see its employee costs go up over time? Once again, they are under 10% from having a FA union and a Ramp that is pushing too. They will be giving pay raises just like everyone else. AA will have a larger % increase, but they have a lot more room to go up to get to DL/UA pay. 
The best part of this industry is that everything happens in such a public way that everyone eventually knows exactly what happened

and then people can spin and spin and spin. 
 

perhaps you can tell us who will be doing overhaul maintenance on AA's 787 and 320 family fleet.

of course overhaul maintenance is not exactly a topic you want to discuss since WN has the highest rate of maintenance outsourcing among the big 4.

It is no surprise you want to sweep the discussion under the rug.

tell us also what WN wants for PT and outsourced ramp as well...

these are real issues.... when people here complain about what DL is doing, it is absolutely relevant to be talking about what other carriers are doing.

If unions can't move the ball forward at the carriers where they exist, the notion that they can do it at DL is even more fanciful.

I'll tell you, 
 
 
 
no one. New airplanes don't need overhauls. It will take years before the first 320 or 787 is due for HMV. 
 
 
and If we are talking about overhauls no WN and AA do the most overhauls in house. Delta would be your leader in overhauls not done in house. 

 

[700UW]

PMUS already overhauls the A320 family in CLT and PIT.
 
PMAA is training their mechanics in TUL on the A320 family, and they dont undergo their S-check until six years.
 
They get a C1 through C12 check during that six year period, with most of them being overnight and the higher checks are three to five days.
 
And PMAA doesnt have any 787s yet, and they wont need heavy for a long time, and AA has brought back the 757s and 767s to TUL and not farming them out.
 
Dont let the facts get in your way there WT aka spinmaster.

 

[WorldTraveler]

The spinmaster would be whoever refuses to acknowledge that US has the highest percentage of maintenance outsourcing of the 4 legacy carriers - since AA and US still report separately.

Of course, we can cue the "the IAM saved airframe overhauls" but they obviously allowed US to outsource far more work that is clearly more valuable.

 

don't know what you expect the company to do. 
 
I know if they weren't here they wouldn't be getting hired though. 
bingo. 
 
and then people can spin and spin and spin. 
 
I'll tell you, 
 
 
 
no one. New airplanes don't need overhauls. It will take years before the first 320 or 787 is due for HMV. 
 
 
and If we are talking about overhauls no WN and AA do the most overhauls in house. Delta would be your leader in overhauls not done in house.

uh..... productivity in the airline industry is measured by the amount of AMSs produced by a given number of workers. AA/US has resulted in the largest workforce in the US airline industry and yet they aren't producing enough ASMs to generate anywhere near the productivity that DL or UA or WN does.

Yes, AA/US is bringing work back in right now because the alternative is to lay people off - something Parker is not willing to do yet.

What can't be changed or denied is that AA/US' labor costs are growing far faster than DL or UA's which means that AA/US either becomes uncompetitive or cuts jobs or keeps employees paid below average.

For someone who touts their business acumen gained at UGa, it should be pretty easy to see.

new AA is doing what it can to balance a whole lot of competing demands but the bottom line is that AA will cut jobs or become uncompetitive relative to its peers.

There is no other option.

And anyone that thinks that AA is going to maintain the same size of maintenance workforce for a fleet of far newer aircraft compared to what they have today is quite simply detached from reality.

 

[southwind]

 
 



You're clearly not listening to enough AM talk radio...

So you would hire the American citizen, standing on your front porch, wanting to cut your grass for $50.00, before hiring the Illegal Alien, standing behind him for $20.00? Got it!
 
What if that Illegal Alien had not been allowed to cross the border?

 

[Kev3188]

So you would hire the American citizen, standing on your front porch, wanting to cut your grass for $50.00, before hiring the Illegal Alien, standing behind him for $20.00? Got it!

What a ridiculous (and typical) example. How come the RWNJ's all use this one?

At any rate, I'll go with C: Assuming I'm not going to do it myself, I'll hire the neighborhood kid saving up for school (or whatever), and pay him directly.

 

[eolesen]

AA most certainly removed dozens of cities from their maintenance. The fact that they added a few stations back as a result of the merger hardly changes the outsourcing that AA did.

Where are the overhauls for the 787s going to be done? Airbus narrowbodies?

 
Yeah, not exactly true, WT.

There were a few stations who lost maintenance coverage, not dozens, and it was all schedule driven. AA dropped the AFW overhaul base during the bankruptcy to jettison the real estate, but they're set to be insourcing the 757 overhauls which had been identified as going to TIMCO. Widebodies may still wind up being outsourced, but so far there's no indication if the 320's are going outside, especially if there's tooling and expertise within the merged company to support it. I suspect it's also a fairly hot topic in the JCBA negotiations.
 

What a ridiculous (and typical) example. How come the RWNJ's all use this one?

At any rate, I'll go with C: Assuming I'm not going to do it myself, I'll hire the neighborhood kid saving up for school (or whatever), and pay him directly.

...says the pro-union guy, who presumably has no problem exploiting child labor when it will save his own wallet a few bucks...

 

[WorldTraveler]

removing real estate limits the size of the operation. period. Unless you and others can show that AA underused its existing maintenance facilities, if they removed something in BK, the size of the maintenance operation will shrink.

It is hardly a consolation that AA is keeping some of the 757/767 work given that there appears to be no change in AA's plans to rapidly retire that fleet just as UA is doing.

It is possible that AA could retain 757s as DL intends to do perhaps even beyond the 56 or so 757s plus 753s but it would take a fairly good sized effort on AA's part to retain 757s for a significant period of time for the increased maintenance to be meaningful overall.

AA not only hasn't changed its plans to outsource current widebody overhauls but they also have given no indication that they intend to have those capabilities for the 787s and 350s or for the 320 family aircraft.

The 787 and 350 maintenance support can't be developed overnight.

As with all things, we can check back on what happens in a few years but the chances are very high given Parker's propensity for maintenance outsourcing that AA maintenance will be smaller than the sum of AA plus US maintenance at the time of the merger.

Further, AA did close its own ramp in a number of cities; gaining a few cities back as a result of the merger hardly undoes all of the loss of mainline stations.

There are a lot of moving parts with the merger that will take years to finally be determined but increased outsourcing at AA over the long term is a given.

Unions have simply not demonstrated that they can completely and permanently stop outsourcing which is why making claims that DL employees are more affected while union employees are protected simply is not accurate - and DL employees know the difference.

there simply is no measure that unions or their supporters can use to say that DL employees are worse off than their peers at any airline.

as for Kev's comment about child labor, there are kids who can morally and legally do jobs for which they can be paid.

I'm not sure I would ding Kev on the basis of child labor but rather for the "if I can't get mine" mindset... which is exactly how DL has managed to increase the RRs which Kev so much hates. DL is doing what it is doing because there is a willing market... no different than his willingness to hire someone outside of the "preferred" system which is full-time, benefitted adult workers.

 

[700UW]

You are wrong once again, PMUS has been doing HMV on airbus narrowbody since 1998. PMAA has and is buying the tooling needed and training TULE mechanics on the airbus A320 family.

Why are you posting lies again? And the 787 and A350 aren't even in the property yet. And dl outsources all hmv on their fleet.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and you still hold onto the mistaken notion that airframe overhauls are the benchmark of outsourcing when DL outsources less total maintenance than UA, US, or WN.

good for the IAM to protect a few jobs with airframe overhauls but they let the far more valuable work go right out the door.

Of course TUL will do some Airbus maintenance.... the question is how much.

Until AA overhauled 320s start rolling out the door, there is no assurance that work will be retained in-house.

The 787 is due to arrive shortly.

The lack of protection for that work and the history AA and US both have of outsourcing maintenance would hardly make it a surprise that those aircraft are heavily outsourced as well.

I have a feeling you will be as wrong about outsourcing of jobs as you are about the boarding priority process and your statements that defined contribution retirement programs aren't considered pensions.

 

[Kev3188]

...says the pro-union guy, who presumably has no problem exploiting child labor when it will save his own wallet a few bucks...

Exploiting child labor laws would involve making one of my kids do it for free...   
 
And just to take this tangent further past it's logical extreme, ideally the kid that shows up to ask will be educated enough to see that mine's already cut, and instead offer a service I might actually need...

 

[700UW]

Spreading lies again. It took a bankruptcy court to abrogate the CBA in 2005 for the ability to outsource. The IAM was successful in 2008 to bring 50% of HMV billable hours done in-house, from 2005 till 2008 the company could have outsourced everything. There are more jobs connected to HMV than component overhaul. And let's see how about those hangars that DL/NW shutdown, DFW, MSP, DUL, ATL, TPA, am I leaving any out? Stop with the lies, the A350 isn't coming into the fleet till 2017 and the 787 isn't going into revenue service till the end of the year and won't need HMV for several years or more. And what does a 401k or flight benefits have to do with the topic? Once again throw crap into the debate to distract that you are wrong, once again.

 

[Kev3188]

And let's see how about those hangars that DL/NW shutdown, DFW, MSP, DUL, ATL, TPA, am I leaving any out?

CMH for starters...

 

[WorldTraveler]

there are no lies.

the IAM saved some jobs but the highest value work is outsourced. If you can't grasp that economics dictates that the most valuable work will result in the highest compensation for those who do that work, then I can't help you. and neither can anyone else.

The IAM has managed to hold the company to an agreement that is counter to the company's best financial interests.

they will outsource where it makes the most sense. you saved a few overhaul jobs and allowed the company to outsource far more work both in quantity and value. They won.

DL had no hangar in CMH. CVG perhaps but DL never did schedule heavy maintenance there.

again, unions have done nothing to stop the amount of outsourcing - which is why DL employees don't buy the feeble arguments you two come up with.

I have a feeling we'll be discussing the outsourced maintenance not just on the 787 and 350 as wellas 320 overhauls as well.

 

[700UW]

Lies again.
 
Done nothing?
 
Lets see from the ability to outsource 100% of the work to only 50% is doing something.
 
AA wanted to outsource as much as they wanted, the TWU got a cap at 35% of the budget.
 
AMFA at WN got another line of check back in-house.
 
Yep the unions are doing nothing to bring work back.
 
Must suck to be you.

 

[Kev3188]

DL had no hangar in CMH. CVG perhaps but DL never did schedule heavy maintenance there.

Good for DL. They didn't have one in DLH, either, but that's not who I was referring to when responding to 700. Here's his post. Note he mentions "another" carrier in it. 

 

And let's see how about those hangars that DL/NW shutdown, DFW, MSP, DUL, ATL, TPA, am I leaving any out?