stop the outsourcing?

[Kev3188]

Weren't you the one that talked about the hangars that NW got rid of?

Weren't you the one that misread it, and wasted a ton of bandwidth over it?

 

[WorldTraveler]

misread or not, NW sold off much of its maintenance capabilities and DL has not replaced it; thus the current average rate of outsourcing reflects the fact that NW outsourced more maintenance at the time of the merger than any legacy airline at the time.

DL uses its facilities to operate its own maintenance and to insource what they can do to make money; 700 would never understand the business case behind outsourcing lower cost work to outsource in order to insource work that is more valuable but that is what DL has done... .and why DL has the lowest maintenance costs for its own fleet compared to other carriers.

DL uses its insourced maintenance capabilities to reduce its own costs.

and provide more jobs for DL people than they could have if they did the work on their own

 

[robbedagain]

IF  DL insources their work... then explain why in the flippin world are they sending planes to 3rd world nations in ASIA for Interior work?  Talk about a waste of fuel for cheap crap done.   Itd be a helluva lot in fuel cost savings alone if they do it in ATL or MSP or in the US period

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL outsources work that they can get done for less compared to the revenues they can gain from using the same facilities to do insourcing.

DL doesn't have facilities to do all of its own maintenance in part because NW sold off much of its maintenance infrastructure.

DL recognizes maintenance insourcing as a lucrative part of its business; they can make 25% profit margins or better (1 dollar in profits for every 4 dollars in price) for component and engine overhauls.

before you lay into DL for its overseas maintenance work, would you like to tell me how AA got the 772 that just returned from HKG and a cabin mod - the same thing DL sent its aircraft to Asia for?

The aircraft ferried over without passengers. That is a known and fully expected part of the process of doing maintenance on the other side of the planet.

The cost of the ferry, crew, and the whole nine yards has got to be less than the savings an airline gets for sending the work over there. I don't have to like it to know that is the way it works.

if you don't want to be called "son" then don't go throwing dirt about something that you not only are clueless about but also for things about which AA and other carriers do the exact same thing as DL.

 

[robbedagain]

You Will Not Address me as son    that's a fact jack.   Second   Ive been in the airline family and at an airline for yrs so yes I do have knowledge.  And when Im wrong I am willing to admit it but you on the other hand wont EVER ADMIT your wrong.   You have been out for close to 10 yrs give or take and you ACT like you know everything but in reality you have yet to see what reality is like at DL compared to say Kev who is an actual DL employee

 

[LD3]

Don't get upset robbed, we all know that WT treats everyone like dumb a$$es, but right know Dawg owns him...

 

[WorldTraveler]

save it, robbed.

you made hay about DL flying its aircraft about DL flying aircraft across the Pacific back from maintenance.

not only does AA do it but so does every other airline that does or did foreign maintenance.

If you want to throw dirt, make sure your hand is spotless.

 

[robbedagain]

your right LD3   Dawg has some of the best posts yet and he owns wt  

 

[swamt]

Don't get upset robbed, we all know that WT treats everyone like dumb a$$es, but right know Dawg owns him...

Dawg does own him right now.  He was also successful in getting the two twins in a full blown tiff-tiff.  It's just like watching 2-3 year olds fighting over the ball in the playground on recess.  I also see the pot is still calling other kettles black.  Man, you just gotta LUV this stuff.  Robbed, don't let it bother you, we all know that the twins have to use words and verbiage to make himself feel like he is in a superior position or authority and talks down to all others, even others that have to act and talk to people the exact same way, hence the "twins".  When he used the "son" word to you, it made him feel in a position of authority as if he was scolding his son and putting him in his place, so typical of him...  

 

[700UW]

I'm so glad you are concerned about me, hypocrite.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Despite the fascination some of you have with someone "owning" someone else, dawg not only doesn't own me but I doubt very seriously that he wants to.

dawg and I differ about some subjects but I respect him for who he is and what he does and I can have spirited debates even with people who I respect.

Some of you can't do that... and you are the ones who lose.

What dawg cannot do - and neither can any of you - is that DL's maintenance operation today reflects almost exactly to the percent the amount of outsourcing that DL and NW had based on the size each carrier had at the time of the merger.

Dawg may distrust former NW execs and their propensity to outsource but the DL of today reflects the heritage of the parts that make it up. He can tell us how much insourcing DL did at the time of the merger but the outsourcing numbers are well known and published. As a result of the merger, DL's current level of outsourcing reflects the amount of outsourcing that each carrier had at the time of the merger.

Those who boast about how much insourcing AA does might consider how much of US' work AA will have to take on to not end up with a very similar position as DL; AA and DL have historically (prior to the NW merger) had very similar levels of outsourcing. AA hasn't ever - so far as I know - ever generated as much money via insourcing as DL does now.

 

[robbedagain]

thanks swamt and LD3

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm so glad you are concerned about me, hypocrite.

swamt it is in a tough spot. You should be more kind to him.

WN is a great company, is well run, and is making lots of very good choices as far as finding new revenue.

the problem for swamt is that other carriers' employees are watching their pay grow by amounts that are far beyond what WN can pay.

WN's wage growth was faster than any of the legacy carriers, even with the huge pay raises that US employees have gained.

remember there are those who were convinced that DL knew nothing about what AA offered its employees. The evidence is clear that they not only did, but WN mgmt. is now face-palmed trying to figure out how to keep their workforce from imploding at all of the increased pay news coming from AA and DL.

 

[topDawg]

uh, you might want to check the data that shows that NW was outsourcing 61% of its maintenance spend when they shut their doors; it went as high as 74% in 2007. wanna guess what took place right before?
okay? 
DL's rate of maintenance outsourcing jumped from 26 to 40% between 2009 and 2010; 2009 was the last year NW reported as a standalone company separate from DL's stats while 2010 was the first year DL's numbers include NW.
and why is that okay?
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2013%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Productivity/Individual%20Employee%20Data/Delta%20Airlines%20Employee%20Data%20and%20Analysis.htm

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2013%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Productivity/Individual%20Employee%20Data/Northwest%20Airlines%20Employee%20Data%20and%20Analysis.htm

 
 

So now we're using a YOY increase in outsourcing of "only" 14% as a good thing?

Now wonder this country is so f'ed...

It amazes me that Delta is slowly growing to 50% and that is suppose to be okay....
 
bet he brings up profit sharing again.......
 

holy cow.

Did you not grasp the fact that the reason why DL's rate of maintenance outsourcing jumped was because it absorbed NW who outsourced 60% of its maintenance at the time of the merger?

okay and why isn't Delta bringing that work in-house
DL had 25% before the merger, NW had 60% and the final entity ended up with 40% which hasn't moved much since the merger.
25% to 40% is a hell of a jump. Merger or not, and its not going down.....but is still going up. 3 years after the merger but outsourcing % is still trending up doesn't mean its just the fault of the merger 

Weren't you the one that talked about the hangars that NW got rid of?
And? IS all work done in a hangar? no its not. 

 
 

You can post your stupid money statistics as much as you want, there is more of a cost and more components outsourced at US and other airlines.
 
Both AA and US do more in-house Airfram overhaul then any other US based airline.
 
And DL outsources ALL their own AO and most of their mods.
 
So if DL did that work in-house, how many more jobs would be added?

thousands. 
You can count on at least a line each for the widebody's and probably two for the narrows. 100 guys a line, so probably 1500 to 2000 people. Of course if you look at the other big items, 320/330/777/747 landing gear, V2500 engine, BR715 engine, PW4000-100 engine, all the seats, 320/330/717/M90/M88/777/744 APUs. All the mod work that is being done......
I'll ball park it and say 4000 to 5000 people. 

Weren't you the one that misread it, and wasted a ton of bandwidth over it?

yes. 
 

misread or not, NW sold off much of its maintenance capabilities and DL has not replaced it; thus the current average rate of outsourcing reflects the fact that NW outsourced more maintenance at the time of the merger than any legacy airline at the time.
huh? No they didn't. MSP still has a fair amount of back shop space. They could handle V2500 overhauls (and they have a 70K test cell). I believe the landing gear shop is still there also. As for the smaller things Delta could do them in ATL by just incensing staffing. Delta doesn't have a single shop that is at capacity that I know off. Even the engine shop is well under capacity.  
DL uses its facilities to operate its own maintenance and to insource what they can do to make money; 700 would never understand the business case behind outsourcing lower cost work to outsource in order to insource work that is more valuable but that is what DL has done... .and why DL has the lowest maintenance costs for its own fleet compared to other carriers.
All this "lower level" work you keep talking about is what keeps companies like AAR and TIMCO going. 
 
Maybe you could quit copying everything Delta executives said during BK and learn more about what your talking about. 
DL uses its insourced maintenance capabilities to reduce its own costs.

and provide more jobs for DL people than they could have if they did the work on their own
huh? want to try that again? 

 
 

IF  DL insources their work... then explain why in the flippin world are they sending planes to 3rd world nations in ASIA for Interior work?  Talk about a waste of fuel for cheap crap done.   Itd be a helluva lot in fuel cost savings alone if they do it in ATL or MSP or in the US period

The excuse is they don't want to "flex" the work force up and down. 
That would be fine and well is the bays were full year round, however they aren't full year round. 
Also the idea is the mods aren't long-term work. This is also an issue with me because Delta has been doing lie-flat mods (the 764s were done in house.....then management changed and off to SIN they went) is once the lie-flat mods are done Delta has other mods starting up. So it isn't long term work but they could keep one or two lines of mods going if they wanted. 737s will be getting AVOD, A319s/A320s new cabins. 757 new cabins... Mods are something that are really never ending. Something always needs to be done.
 

DL outsources work that they can get done for less compared to the revenues they can gain from using the same facilities to do insourcing.
this is also bs. The MRO bays have been doing more Delta work lately than MRO work. They were going to have multiple lines for the M88/M90 cockpit mods(but most of the staffing was going to be contractors.) but that looks like they aren't doing those mods anymore. 
DL doesn't have facilities to do all of its own maintenance in part because NW sold off much of its maintenance infrastructure.
also BS. Airframe overhauls would require hangar space, most back shop work will fit into existing infrastructure.  
DL recognizes maintenance insourcing as a lucrative part of its business; they can make 25% profit margins or better (1 dollar in profits for every 4 dollars in price) for component and engine overhauls.
but turn down opportunities to gain even more money by not doing more work in-house.  
before you lay into DL for its overseas maintenance work, would you like to tell me how AA got the 772 that just returned from HKG and a cabin mod - the same thing DL sent its aircraft to Asia for?
hmm AA sends its 777s to HEACO for cabin mods and overhauls.......good point. Now care to remind me where they rest of the fleet's overhauls are done? AAR? no....PEMCO....no......hmmmm AA's hangar in Mexico? nope not it.
 
Oh thats right...they do them all in house. 
The aircraft ferried over without passengers. That is a known and fully expected part of the process of doing maintenance on the other side of the planet.
okay? 
The cost of the ferry, crew, and the whole nine yards has got to be less than the savings an airline gets for sending the work over there. I don't have to like it to know that is the way it works.
but thats false thats the problem. You've been told why they work is sent over there. It isn't cost. 

if you don't want to be called "son" then don't go throwing dirt about something that you not only are clueless about but also for things about which AA and other carriers do the exact same thing as DL.

 

[WorldTraveler]

for someone that has been in the airline industry as long as you have, you seem mighty unable to grasp some basic principles.

EVERY part of DL's operation has peaks and valleys in the operation including times when the load factor dips and when there are spare aircraft.

And then there are days when flight after flight is packed and there are virtually no spares.

Just because DL has space here or there doesn't make it possible to commit to move a type of work inhouse if it can't be done on a year round basis.

the fact that, as you note, DL moved work into the space that was expected to be used for the M80/90 cockpit mods proves exactly the point that DL is capable of adjusting PROGRAMS, not just a little capacity here or there to keep DL people and facilities working.

and what you simply cannot grasp and don't want to accept is that DL is simply not going to build facilities to accommodate the outsourcing that is done because NW gave up that space.

you can take it up with the board as long as you want but NW made the decision to dismantle its maintenance operation after the AMFA strike and DL TO THIS TODAY does outsourcing comparable to what DL and NW each did at the time of the merger.