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Seniority Question


Amazingly, Seniority in the past WAS NEVER A PROBLEM>>>

Suddenly now..

GO PACK SAND>>>

IF sen is a problem, so are the CHIEF'S AT THE TOP>>> :down:
 
UFAU_FlyBoy said:
There was a faint rumor that while Light Years and I were tossing a coin to see who gets to wear white to a (US-UA) wedding, that you guys might become AFA bridesmaids yourselves. BTW, don't be surprised if AFA-CWA smells blood in the wAAter and brings a dog and pony show to your town soon. AFA-CWA's primary stated objective is to recruit flight attendants from as many airlines as possible, and they may see an opportunity there now.
Click to expand...
The thing that scares everyone about a representation election is that the company may be trying to engineer it.

Reason: The rumor that there would be at least 3 choices--APFA, a new independent union to replace APFA, or an AFL-CIO affiliated union, such as CWA-AFA. I have seen one interpretation of the law from a friend who is a labor lawyer that if none of the 3 won a majority--not just the most votes, has to be 50% + 1--we would be left totally without representation. That such a result would eliminate APFA, but not install a replacement.

My friend admits that there are other possible interpretations, but if this interpretation prevailed in court--even in the first round--the company could ostensibly nullify what's left of our CBA, and it might be years before we regained representation. And, the company has a lot more money to fight representation than we would have to promote representation.
 
Jimntx,

The Railway Labor Act (RLA), and the National Mediation Board (NMB) that administer it, do not tolerate carrier influence or interference in representational elections. Our advisors tell us that the penatlies far outweigh any potential benefits for a carrier. Carriers' employees can't even offer an offhand opinion about under which union its employees might fare better. During the 'representational dispute,' a carrier is held to 'laboratory standards,' meaning that no pay, work rules, policies or their enforcement, etcetera, may change because any such change could possibly be construed to favor the incumbent or a challenger. We at UFAU are very confident that carrier interference is rare of not nonexistent.

The first step is to get 50%+1 of the class (the carrier's mechanics or flight attendants, for instance) to sign signatures asking the NMB to hold a representational election. Once the election is called, the NMB mails secret telephone voting instructions to the home of each person on the class' seniority list, including those on leave or furlough.

No matter how the election is called, who paid for the signature drive, who the incumbent is, whatever, once the election is called, anyone can camp onto the race. Even write-ins are accomodated. I cannot imagine any scenario in which AFA-CWA would not run on the ballot. Any union's constitution requires it to defend itself, so that guarantees APFA on the ballot. I think your three-party scenario is quite realistic.

Not voting in the representational election is a vote for no union representation. When the votes are counted, if at least 50%+1 have abstained, then there will be no union for that class. I forget how soon the next election can be, but it doesn't matter for a couple of very good reasons:
1) This scenario means that the majority of the class who asked for the election (ostensibly to switch unions) forgot to vote in it, and the incumbent and any other challengers never got anyone to vote in it either. And we're talking about one of the most important votes in our careers.
2) This has never happened in the history of the NMB. Turnout is invariably in the 90%'s.

Assuming that the above scenario does not come to pass, the union that recieves the most votes (no longer requires a 50%+1, just the most votes) is certified as the new collective bargaining agent within 24 hours of the count. The 50%+1 thing is a bit confusing at first, because it shows up in both the signature drive and in the vote, but the most votes does (do?), indeed, determine the winner alone. The RLA dictates that the contract, or Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA), remains in effect under the new union without change until is amendable date -- you cannot lose your contract by switching unions, even if you want to.

An excelent source of this information is the NMB website. Here is their
representation manual (PDF), which takes the legalese out of most of the procedures.

Hope this helps.
 
light,

Very good informative post.

however, the hiring ages changed in the early 80's. in 980, the new hiring age was 2l. it has not changed since.
 
there was a recruiting policy set forth by the company that changed the hire age.

however, i have been known to be wrong once or twice, lol.....it may have changed and no one cleared it with me.... :lol:
 
UFAU_FlyBoy said:
Assuming that the above scenario does not come to pass, the union that recieves the most votes (no longer requires a 50%+1, just the most votes) is certified as the new collective bargaining agent within 24 hours of the count. The 50%+1 thing is a bit confusing at first, because it shows up in both the signature drive and in the vote, but the most votes does (do?), indeed, determine the winner alone. The RLA dictates that the contract, or Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA), remains in effect under the new union without change until is amendable date -- you cannot lose your contract by switching unions, even if you want to.
Click to expand...
From what I read when a majority of the eligible voters have cast valid ballots but no single organization or individual (assuming more then 2 choices) has received a majority of the votes cast a run-off election may be run.

Does that not mean that one individual or organization would have to get 50% +1 of the votes cast to avoid a run-off election?

Majority:
Definition:
[n] the property resulting from being or relating to the greater in number of two parts; the main part; "the majority of his customers prefer it"; "the bulk of the work is finished"
[n] (in an election) more than half of the votes
[n] the age at which a person is considered competent to manage their own affairs
 
Several folks were hired pre-911 who were only 19 years of age. I could never figure out how this could be, seeing that we sell alcohol on the planes. If you go to a grocery store, any one under 21 cannot run liguor through the scanner. I believe at the highest time of U hiring they were seeming to be desparate for warm bodies. Hence, they lowered the standards as well as the age. <_<

P.S. They also lowered the mentality. I remember hearing the story of the F/A on an overnight in PBI, who didn't show up for the van the next day. Capt. called and searched her room. She was located out back in a bikini drinking a glass of wine, having a good ol time. Capt. asked why she wasn't ready to go to the Airport. She exclaimed...I was told in training that I got 2 personal days a year, so I am taking one of my personal days to day...the weather is so great. DUH. That's a youngin' for you....

No offense LT. 😉
 
UFAU_FlyBoy said:
Jimntx,

The Railway Labor Act (RLA), and the National Mediation Board (NMB) that administer it, do not tolerate carrier influence or interference in representational elections. Our advisors tell us that the penatlies far outweigh any potential benefits for a carrier. Carriers' employees can't even offer an offhand opinion about under which union its employees might fare better. During the 'representational dispute,' a carrier is held to 'laboratory standards,' meaning that no pay, work rules, policies or their enforcement, etcetera, may change because any such change could possibly be construed to favor the incumbent or a challenger. We at UFAU are very confident that carrier interference is rare of not nonexistent.

The first step is to get 50%+1 of the class (the carrier's mechanics or flight attendants, for instance) to sign signatures asking the NMB to hold a representational election. Once the election is called, the NMB mails secret telephone voting instructions to the home of each person on the class' seniority list, including those on leave or furlough.

No matter how the election is called, who paid for the signature drive, who the incumbent is, whatever, once the election is called, anyone can camp onto the race. Even write-ins are accomodated. I cannot imagine any scenario in which AFA-CWA would not run on the ballot. Any union's constitution requires it to defend itself, so that guarantees APFA on the ballot. I think your three-party scenario is quite realistic.

Not voting in the representational election is a vote for no union representation. When the votes are counted, if at least 50%+1 have abstained, then there will be no union for that class. I forget how soon the next election can be, but it doesn't matter for a couple of very good reasons:
1) This scenario means that the majority of the class who asked for the election (ostensibly to switch unions) forgot to vote in it, and the incumbent and any other challengers never got anyone to vote in it either. And we're talking about one of the most important votes in our careers.
2) This has never happened in the history of the NMB. Turnout is invariably in the 90%'s.

Assuming that the above scenario does not come to pass, the union that recieves the most votes (no longer requires a 50%+1, just the most votes) is certified as the new collective bargaining agent within 24 hours of the count. The 50%+1 thing is a bit confusing at first, because it shows up in both the signature drive and in the vote, but the most votes does (do?), indeed, determine the winner alone. The RLA dictates that the contract, or Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA), remains in effect under the new union without change until is amendable date -- you cannot lose your contract by switching unions, even if you want to.

An excelent source of this information is the NMB website. Here is their
representation manual (PDF), which takes the legalese out of most of the procedures.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but you have to prove that the company interfered with the process. Easier said than done. And, in your case at United, the company is probably not going to care which union represents you--national or in-house. However, if you were currently non-union and there was a representation election, the company might not stand on the sidelines quite so willingly.

And, there are always "perfectly legal" ways to thwart a representation election. For instance, if you have been flying over 6 months, I would be willing to bet that every time you fly, you violate at least one of "da rules"--not the FARs--the company policies and procedures. Particularly the ones written by someone who has never set foot on the airplane except as a passenger. If you are spearheading the effort to get cards signed for an election, you might find yourself written up for every little thing. All perfectly legal. I'm not talking about changing the rules which would be illegal, just enforcing the existing rules. "The company isn't interfering with the election. We're just trying to get that marginal flight attendant to do his job correctly."

Or, an all-time favorite in big corporations is to go back over your employment application with a fine tooth comb. I was once told by a V-P for Human Resources at a Fortune 50 company that if they really want to get rid of someone, they just go back over their employment app and resume. There will be at least one thing on there that is "technically" not true. So, there you are--fired for lying on your application. You might sue, and you might even get your job back, but you are going to need deeper pockets than the company's, and lot's of time.
 
usairways_vote_NO,
Yes, you're right about the run-off. That provision wasn't part of my mantra since we at UAL are only facing a two-party election, and a run-off would be moot. I apologize for my omission and thank you for checking me. But yes, in the three-party scenario at AA, if no contender receives the 50%+1 of votes, then the top two contenders would most certainly be in a run-off election.

Resource materials:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx...cfr1206_03.html
 
If no union recieves a majority you get decertified and have no union and become a employee at will with the company to do as they please with you. In a two party election.
 
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