Seniority Question

[UFAU_FlyBoy]

What is the senioroty date of the most junior USAir F/A? Does anyone have a reasonable breakdown of USAir F/A seniority?
Your help is very much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[ITRADE]

Somebody's concerned about seniority list integration.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

or pretending..... This is too transparent, even for me. I'm the one that never looks beyond the posting, but c'mon, I'll make an exception for this one!

It's like the wolf going on the sheeps' website and asking, "which one of you has a lame leg?" Well, not quite.... but sort of.

 

[Light Years]

3333333333333333333333

 

[Light Years]

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[mweiss]

Mid-50s??? That'd put that FA's age at about 70. I have grandparents in that age range, and even as healthy as they are (they look and act much younger than their age), I still would have doubts of their ability to evacuate an airplane in 90 seconds. I'm all in favor of working as long as one wishes in most circumstances, but that age range gives me pause for a job as intensive as an FA's.

 

[jimntx]

Mid-50s??? That'd put that FA's age at about 70. I have grandparents in that age range, and even as healthy as they are (they look and act much younger than their age), I still would have doubts of their ability to evacuate an airplane in 90 seconds. I'm all in favor of working as long as one wishes in most circumstances, but that age range gives me pause for a job as intensive as an FA's.

At AA, the number 1 flight attendant in seniority has an occupational seniority date of 06NOV52. There are still 10 flight attendants on the active list who started flying for AA in the 50's.

 

[Light Years]

iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

 

[UFAU_FlyBoy]

Light Years, that was exactly it. Thanks! And you're right: any more detail is just academic unless we're bidding schedules together.

Sorry, guys, I guess it was insensitive of me to just ask without saying why I was looking. I'm a UAL flight attendant. On voluntary furlough myself. You're exactly right about my question being seniority list integration, though I'm not exactly siffing for road kill or anything. The whole question of merger or whatever is out of all our hands; all we can do is watch and wait and worry.
I have two reasons for looking into the possible results of an integration of the lists. First, no two people I listen to at UAL have the same picture of USAir seniority, though many of the guesses are sensational (the real number here are not as alarming as some Chicken Littles are advertising). And AFA is pretty worthless when it comes to information like that.
Second, the United F/A's are in the process of switching from AFA-CWA to a new independent union, the United Flight Attendant Union (UFAU). As you well know, were there to be a merger of the lists under AFA-CWA, then it would be a straight Date-of-Hire (DOH) integration.
Under UFAU, on the other hand, it would be negotiated between the two groups. If no consensual agreement were reached, it would go to arbitration. Historically, arbitrators have held to precedent in cases of seniority. Our precedent at UAL was a 1:5 slotting when UAL bought Pan Am's Pacific routes wet (bought the routes, equipment, and employees). Looks like a negotiated UAL:USAir integration might be closer to 2:1. I think the general idea is that if you were in the 74th percentile on your former list, then you would be slotted in at roughly the 74th percentile on the new list, maintining the relative seniority of each F/A from both lists. Furlough status should not matter in an integration, and would likely be started over with the merged list. Looks like you guys would be in pretty good shape either way.
It may be refreshing to know that most UAL F/A's find AA's slotting TWA F/A's at the bottom of their list to be disgusting and unethical. (It's also impossible at UAL under either union.) The F/A's have no control over who buys or merges with whom. The employees of the acquired airline didn't try to destroy their company any more than those of the buying airline. (Our mechanics may be a notable exception. Okay, our pilots, too. Let's be safe and just stick with F/A's.) Most UAL F/A's believe that in a merger it's a coin-toss which side of the deal we would be on. Our Pac-Day (Pan Am acquisition) merger was so contentious that deep, painful rifts among us lasted over a decade. We are now over that, but we remember how destructive that was and will generally avoid weakening ourselves that way again. We realize now that hurt feelings over perceived shoulda, coulda, woulda seniority were nothing campared to the tangible weakness the resultant mistrust and animosity caused us at the negotiating table.
Please don't think you guys are alone in holding your breath waiting to see what happens next. None of us are in any substantially different boat, except maybe at Jet Blue or SWA.
(PS- Light years: You used "USAir" yourself! I already have to play nurse, nanny, psychiatrist, blahblahblah, do I really have to pronounce all my syllables, too? Even if I should, I don't wanna.)

Hey, jim,
How's things at AA? Do I understand correctly that there are rumblings of switching from APFA?

 

[Light Years]

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

 

[oldiesfan]

At AA, the number 1 flight attendant in seniority has an occupational seniority date of 06NOV52.

Does the term "occupational seniority date" mean something like "original hire date but not necessarily continuous service"?

I ask that since common practice in the '50s was that stewardesses had to "retire" by age thirty-something (can't recall the exact age specified), that is if they hadn't already left to get married.

So did AA's FA#1 return to her job after those rules were tossed?

Excuse me while I go find my VHS of Three Guys Named Mike with all those great DC-6 and Convair 240 shots.

 

[jimntx]

It may be refreshing to know that most UAL F/A's find AA's slotting TWA F/A's at the bottom of their list to be disgusting and unethical.
{snip}
Hey, jim,
How's things at AA? Do I understand correctly that there are rumblings of switching from APFA?

Let's be fair to AA. AA had nothing to do with the stapling of the TWA flight attendants to the bottom of our seniority list. That was all APFA's doing. Association of Professional Flight Attendants (our independent union). AA did (and this is just my opinion) collude with APFA to "bring down the fence" early; so that the former TWA flight attendants would be furloughed ahead of a number of nAAtives who otherwise would be on furlough now.

I doubt seriously that a move to replace APFA would be successful. Apathy thy name is AA flight attendant. With all the emotion and drama preceding the recently concluded election for National Officers, over 12,000 flight attendants out of approximately 24,000 total did not even bother to vote.

Besides, it is believed that the move to replace APFA is being engineered by some of the people who ran for National Office and didn't even garner enough votes to make the runoff. Rightly or wrongly, there is a taste of sour grapes about the replacement move.

 

[UFAU_FlyBoy]

Jim, you're a good sport. We've ribbed you a few times and it's nice to see you're not offended. The AA vs. APFA distinction is well taken and conceded. Thank you.
I looked at some other posts after asking you about APFA and I now realize that the issue seems to be more internal than what I had heard. There was a faint rumor that while Light Years and I were tossing a coin to see who gets to wear white to a (US-UA) wedding, that you guys might become AFA bridesmaids yourselves. BTW, don't be surprised if AFA-CWA smells blood in the wAAter and brings a dog and pony show to your town soon. AFA-CWA's primary stated objective is to recruit flight attendants from as many airlines as possible, and they may see an opportunity there now. It's funny, by the way, that you mention voter apathy too. I seem to be hearing that a lot from several airlines. Glad to hear things have at least calmed down to a loud roar. Hope there is some union peace and stability for you soon!

 

[RowUnderDCA]

Wow, am I actually reading a thread on USAviation.com that is not full of posturing and manipulation and undermining! And it appears to include posters that might end up in a controversy sometime.?!?!

Am I dreaming?

Thanks for the goodwill thread. Honestly, I would normally have skipped this one, but I'm glad I read it.

 

[jimntx]

Does the term "occupational seniority date" mean something like "original hire date but not necessarily continuous service"?

I ask that since common practice in the '50s was that stewardesses had to "retire" by age thirty-something (can't recall the exact age specified), that is if they hadn't already left to get married.

So did AA's FA#1 return to her job after those rules were tossed?

Excuse me while I go find my VHS of Three Guys Named Mike with all those great DC-6 and Convair 240 shots.

Occupational seniority, as it is used by the union to determine bidding seniority, is specifically the date one started flying as a flight attendant for AA. It may or may not be original hire date. For instance, if someone started as a gate agent, but later became a flight attendant, their company seniority date would be different from their occupational seniority date.

One of my classmates had been a flight attendant for American Eagle for 5 years before transferring to AA. Her company seniority date is some time in 1995. Her AA flight attendant occupational seniority date is the same as mine, 07SEP00.

You are correct that in the 50's (and I think, well into the 60's) at AA if you turned 32, gained 10 pounds, or got married (and the company found out about it), you lost your job. I think it was in the mid-60's during the Civil Rights era that a group of flight attendants (I'm still researching which ones, but it was either AA, TWA, or PanAm) sued for reinstatement because the rules were discriminatory against women. IIRC, one of the winning points for the complainants was that male flight attendants were not held to strict height/weight standards like the women were. (I know you are just shocked. )

All the airlines were required to offer flight attendant jobs to those who had been moved to non-flying jobs or terminated. Quite a few came back to flying. From my extensive 2 year, 10 month career, I can testify that it gets in your blood.