Pilot Pension Progress?

[oldiebutgoody]

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On 1/24/2003 12:16:28 PM cavalier wrote:

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On 1/24/2003 12:03:52 PM N421LV wrote:

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On 1/24/2003 11:38:01 AM cavalier wrote:

A guy I know flies the refuelers for the military, the BIG birds making what a RJ F/O makes if he is lucky.

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So are you saying RJ pilots makes even less? I really don't know?

I KNOW what he makes and it is not what one would think it should be when looking at what majors pay to fly the same aircraft, not even close!

I find that really hard to believe.
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Pilots in the military make pretty much the same as the mainline F/Os, when you figure in the tax benefits. RJ Captains make about 1/2 of that, and RJ F/Os make 1/3 of that. Pilots on other commuter aircraft make even LESS than that.

 

[1ab]

oh please oh please sweet kind pilots of U ..please I need my job..give up your pension or take what you can get....you an negoitiate for more in the future...

 

[Atlantic]

POST DELETED BY MODERATOR

 

[willyloman]

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On 1/24/2003 12:25:26 PM eolesen wrote:

So you're comparing the skill level of a
steelworker to that of a commercial airline
pilot?

Why not? We have pilots who compare themself to surgeons...
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For your information, USAirways employs a number of pilots who are physicians. Also quite a number of attorneys, MBA's, engineers, architects, biologists, teachers, geologists, etc. etc. etc. Most pilots have advanced degrees. Any argument, by the way, that pilots will be unable to find other employment if this airline sinks, is a foolish argument.

As to skill level, most of the pilot bashers seem to think that people of varying degrees of skills should be compensated the same. It reminds me of the time my wife was hospitalized and we heard an LPN complain, while emptying bedpans, that she should be paid as much as "those doctors," because they work in the same hospital. You non-pilot whiners on this site would make ideal citizens for a Soviet Union type society.

 

[BillLumbergh]

Watch it, folks.

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

Your point, please?

Take a 5 year pilot for US (if there are any left after the layoffs...), a 15 year Air Force veteran pilot, and a space shuttle astronaut.

Now, who will have the highest gross pay, and who has the best retirement plan? Who will have more annual vacation time?

But I'm not capable of understanding that, right?

There have been plenty of US pilots willing to tell US mechanics and US agents what they're worth...

But since I'm not a pilot, I guess it makes sense that I wouldn't have understood it is a one-way street on who can question someone else's compensation, right?...

Wrong.

Those of us non-pilots do get it, believe it or not. It doesn't take a lot of simulator time to realize that when looking at two similar jobs (civilian pilot, military pilot), that the two have vastly different payscales that inversely reflects their associated level of responsibility and risk.

 

[savyinvestor]

[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/24/2003 411 PM Atlantic wrote: [BR][BR]POST DELETED BY MODERATOR[BR]----------------[BR][/BLOCKQUOTE][BR]Nice condescending response. You must be a pilot. Savy

 

[nycbusdriver]

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On 1/24/2003 5:55:00 PM willyloman wrote:

For your information, USAirways employs a number of pilots who are physicians. Also quite a number of attorneys, MBA's, engineers, architects, biologists, teachers, geologists, etc. etc. etc. Most pilots have advanced degrees. Any argument, by the way, that pilots will be unable to find other employment if this airline sinks, is a foolish argument.

As to skill level, most of the pilot bashers seem to think that people of varying degrees of skills should be compensated the same. It reminds me of the time my wife was hospitalized and we heard an LPN complain, while emptying bedpans, that she should be paid as much as "those doctors," because they work in the same hospital. You non-pilot whiners on this site would make ideal citizens for a Soviet Union type society.
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Willy -

I think you may be slightly overstating the facts. I believe most pilots have college degrees, but not advanced degrees (masters or doctorates.) "Many" indeed do have masters and doctorates in almost any field you can imagine, but "most" do not have these advanced degrees.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/24/2003 2:09:00 PM eolesen wrote: [BR][BR]I've always found it hard to understand how commercial pilots are able to justify in their mind being worth more than the pilot of a B-52 or B-1 (able to kill millions of people instantaneously...), a F-18 (landing on a postage stamp at night), or the pilot of Air Force One. I suppose none of those pilots consider themself highly skilled professionals? They certainly have a lot more day to day responsibility!...[BR][BR]What's a military pension worth for a career pilot?...----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]Maybe because over half the pilots at U WERE THOSE PILOTS. That is where they GOT THE EXPERIENCE TO BE AIRLINE PILOTS. Even those that stay a full career in the military generally retire in their mid 40's. The pension they receive for a full 20+ year career is not enough to live on for most. Then, they go to work at the airline. Many of those folks are the ones whose livelihoods and pensions are at risk. You know what? When I was on active duty MANY YEARS AGO, I trained those fighter guys you speak so highly about. And many of U's present pilots did the same. That is one of the MANY reasons airline pilots command the pay, benefits and working conditions they do. IT AIN'T A TWO OR THREE DAY TRAINING PROGRAM TO BE AN AIRLINE PILOT. Also, being presently involved with the military, I know EXACTLY what military and airline pilots make, so you needn't discredit yourself by insinuating otherwise!

 

[BottomFeeder]

[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/24/2003 5:07:54 PM eolesen wrote: [BR][BR]Those of us non-pilots do get it, believe it or not. It doesn't take a lot of simulator time to realize that when looking at two similar jobs (civilian pilot, military pilot), that the two have vastly different payscales that inversely reflects their associated level of responsibility and risk.[BR]----------------[BR][/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]***************************************************
***[BR][BR]eolesen,[BR][BR]Interesting, I am sure if you look at all positions in the military. Their civilian counterpart usually makes more.[BR][BR]Tell us what a doctor makes in the military? How about the lawyer and the engineer? What does General make? What does the Airline Pres. make?[BR][BR]How about after 20 years of service the military person gets a PENSION. That starts the next day![BR][BR]You are all over the boards on other airlines. <PORTION DELETED BY MODERATOR>[BR]

 

[savyinvestor]

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On 1/24/2003 8:41:04 AM RowUnderDCA wrote:

Isn't likely that any move (reg, policy or legislation) that raises the PBGC maximum payout would benefit every retired pilot?

That would seem to be the simplest fix and one that would be on top of any move that US makes to recompense the retired pilots.

Simple-minded and uninformed, I know
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I've sent numerous e-mails to members of the Finance committee who voted "no" for this legislation. This should be resolved between the company and ALPA. Legislation is not the answer. Rediciulious pensions that are underfunded need to be reduced not legislated. Savy

 

[ClueByFour]

Here's the thing about commercial (mainline) pilots' compensation--

Were it not for the union and the RLA which is _heavily_ slanted toward the employee (sorry, I can't call a mainline pilot "labor" with a straight face), the market would _never_ pay as much as it does for an airline pilot.

It would probably pay something closer to what the Air Force and Navy guys bring in.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

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[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/24/2003 8:35:09 PM ClueByFour wrote: [BR][BR]Here's the thing about commercial (mainline) pilots' compensation--[BR][BR]Were it not for the union and the RLA which is _heavily_ slanted toward the employee (sorry, I can't call a mainline pilot "labor" with a straight face), the market would _never_ pay as much as it does for an airline pilot.[BR][BR]It would probably pay something closer to what the Air Force and Navy guys bring in.----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]Hate to burst your bubble, but military pilots ALREADY make MORE than most commercial pilots (way more than commuter pilots), at least as much as what most major airlines are paying their First Officers. Part of the reason airlines pay is potentially higher is that the airlines are trying to attract the military flyers to work for them. It would be pretty hard to do that without offering more. I bet you didn't know that a military pilot, with the flight pay, base pay, housing allowance and tax savings they get (only the base pay, about 2/3rds of total pay, is taxable, plus they can get a 20 year retirement) can make about 6 figures a year. You didn't know that, did you? I've got a good friend that just went back on active duty and will make MORE than the first officers at U that didn't get furloughed after all the givebacks, even the ones that have been here for 18+ years. Oh, and by the way, military pilots are getting a 4% raise this year. U pilots took a 35% cut last year, which may be followed by a loss of some pension benefits.

 

[BottomFeeder]

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On 1/24/2003 8:35:09 PM ClueByFour wrote:

Here's the thing about commercial (mainline) pilots' compensation--

Were it not for the union and the RLA which is _heavily_ slanted toward the employee (sorry, I can't call a mainline pilot "labor" with a straight face), the market would _never_ pay as much as it does for an airline pilot.

It would probably pay something closer to what the Air Force and Navy guys bring in.
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ClueByFour,

Just how do you arrive at the pay of Commercial pilots. What economic model are you using? What is the source of your facts and figures? Are you currently running your own company? Do you have a MBA and where is it from?

What is your background and what do you currently do?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/24/2003 7:37:21 PM savyinvestor wrote:
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/24/2003 8:41:04 AM RowUnderDCA wrote: [BR][BR]Isn't likely that any move (reg, policy or legislation) that raises the PBGC maximum payout would benefit every retired pilot? [BR][BR]That would seem to be the simplest fix and one that would be on top of any move that US makes to recompense the retired pilots.[BR][BR]Simple-minded and uninformed, I know[BR]----------------[BR][/BLOCKQUOTE][BR]I've sent numerous e-mails to members of the Finance committee who voted "no" for this legislation. This should be resolved between the company and ALPA. Legislation is not the answer. Rediciulious pensions that are underfunded need to be reduced not legislated. Savy
[P][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]Savy,[BR]It's pretty obvious to anyone who reads these forums that you somehow have a problem with the pilot group. I suspect that you are a former member of some other group at US Airways who somehow feels the need for retribution over losing your job. I'm disappointed that anyone has to lose their job, but I'm not upset that people with childish attitudes like yours are NOT employed here any longer. Your assessment of this situation is quite wrong, as all that you are advocating is turning this funding issue over to the taxpayers to guarantee. Also, you can rest assured that U pilots WILL have a pension, which in some way, shape or form pays benefits similar, if not exactly the same as, the one they currently have. You really should think about improving your own lot in life if it bothers you so much that pilots earn what they do and enjoy the prestige of their positions, something that you obviously can't claim for yourself.