Nov/Dec 2013 Fleet Service Discussion

[Tim Nelson]

True, but not to the tune they would bring in new dues from a newly organized group ratifying their first CBA.

Josh

he was incorrect.  Dues are not two times the wage.  First year employees would love that for sure.  Dues are the same for everyone, regardless of how much money anyone makes.  My dues in ORD go up automatically, regardless if I even get any pay raises. And the INTL dues rate goes up NOT based on wages but based on the CPI.  The CPI is hovering around 2.2% for this year so that will be how much the INTL cut is of new dues.
 
I do disagree with you Josh over any lengthy delays. While, the IAM had a motive to toss members interest aside and support management at United to gain 7,500 new dues paying members,  the association agreement recognizes that the TWU/Association will put a priority on negotiating the IAMPF for 16,000 TWU members.  Not saying the IAM is going to support management and bring back a lame Bull S contract, but, if it does, then there is certainly a motive to do so. 

 

[Tim Nelson]

Really?
 
You are truly clueless, the NMB controls the negotiations, not the IAM.
 
And this is how stupid you are, if they get a new CBA, wages go up and dues are based on two times the hourly wage per classification at most stations, dues go up, the IAM gets more money.
 
You are just a pot stirrer.

In most negotiations, I don't believe the NMB is involved regarding invoking certain of its services.  There is nothing preventing the union and company from meeting without the NMB.  The reason why the NMB is involved extensively in these negotiations is because both entities have gone crying to it.  Certainly, there is merit to do so when a management team doesn't want to recognize fairness.  At the end of the day, management will need seamlessness.  No matter how much it barks and stomps its feet, no matter what it does.....at the end of the day, it will need seamlessness.  Patience and communication will be key because IMO if this is done right, it's gonna take some time to reel this puppy in.  And, to be sure, some stations may take on bullets and incomings.  This is a fight or roll over and play dead where everyone gets sacrificed.

 

[737823]

he was incorrect.  Dues are not two times the wage.  First year employees would love that for sure.  Dues are the same for everyone, regardless of how much money anyone makes.  My dues in ORD go up automatically, regardless if I even get any pay raises. And the INTL dues rate goes up NOT based on wages but based on the CPI.  The CPI is hovering around 2.2% for this year so that will be how much the INTL cut is of new dues.
 
I do disagree with you Josh over any lengthy delays. While, the IAM had a motive to toss members interest aside and support management at United to gain 7,500 new dues paying members,  the association agreement recognizes that the TWU/Association will put a priority on negotiating the IAMPF for 16,000 TWU members.  Not saying the IAM is going to support management and bring back a lame Bull S contract, but, if it does, then there is certainly a motive to do so.

Tim, my understanding is the dues structure is the top out wage for the respective classification, so someone junior pays the same dues as a more senior employee, which works out being disproportionately more of their take home pay. As for IAMNPF, I agree but they will need to negotiate this with AA management and the TWU, no guarantee management will agree to add more members to IAMNPF. So Tim, just so I am clear, you are saying it is conceivable the IAM will agree to significant concessions in scope and other areas for the expressed purpose of adding IAMNPF for TWU workers, correct?

Also on the topic of dues, approximately 40% of IAM dues go to the GL, right? SO after the DL only 10-15% is left for the locals.

Josh

 

[Harry Callahan]

Really?
 
You are truly clueless, the NMB controls the negotiations, not the IAM.
 
And this is how stupid you are, if they get a new CBA, wages go up and dues are based on two times the hourly wage per classification at most stations, dues go up, the IAM gets more money.
 
You are just a pot stirrer.

Why does anyone read him & worst of all quote him ?
Harry

 

[737823]

Oh your question is reasonable enough (albeit leading); it was the rest of the dog whistle messaging around it I object to.At any rate, off the top of my head: ANC airfreight, the MEM wind down, Sim techs in MSP, stock clerk "realignment," and I can't help but think I'm forgetting one that'll come to me as soon as I hit "post."Maybe the better question here is this: The company has crafted a dandy little narrative about insourcing, yet hasn't opened (or reopened) a single new point since the merger. Why not?Lastly, let's (collectively) stop rationalizing station closures by saying "they're just small stations." Nothing's "small" about people losing their livelihoods or having to uproot...

Kev you can't be serious. MEM wind down? You know full well that isn't the case, DL cut back MEM because the market was performing, being organized would not stop that. Sure there would be procedures in place in hand,ing the RIF but you mean to say if the IAM was still around those flights wouldn't have gotten cut? Come on. DL considered the simulators to ATL, only reasonable to expect cuts at MSP.

Why do the unions keep selling out the small stations? UA CBA as a recent example. So you think an airline should have ramp personnel at every city they serve?

Josh

 

[mike33]

 So you think an airline should have ramp personnel at every city they serve?

Josh

You Bet....Whats wrong with that line of thinking?...
 
Btw. you didn't say did he think it was economical !

 

[737823]

You Bet....Whats wrong with that line of thinking?...
 
Btw. you didn't say did he think it was economical !

Did you see I heard back from the NMB and posted my responses?

Josh

 

[Jester]

Kev,
 
I do get feedback but if someone like TN has an idea and wants to discuss, I will. It never hurts to have debates about ideas and what may help the membership in the long run.
 
P. Rez

 
P.Rez,
 
I suggest a big bottle of this

placing it on the table as a reminder to the Company and the NC as to what is really most important.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim, my understanding is the dues structure is the top out wage for the respective classification, so someone junior pays the same dues as a more senior employee, which works out being disproportionately more of their take home pay. As for IAMNPF, I agree but they will need to negotiate this with AA management and the TWU, no guarantee management will agree to add more members to IAMNPF. So Tim, just so I am clear, you are saying it is conceivable the IAM will agree to significant concessions in scope and other areas for the expressed purpose of adding IAMNPF for TWU workers, correct?Also on the topic of dues, approximately 40% of IAM dues go to the GL, right? SO after the DL only 10-15% is left for the locals.Josh

I wish it was based on top out. Id b able to save $20+ a month. Conceivable? After how the iam hosed over its firstborn, yes.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev you can't be serious. MEM wind down? You know full well that isn't the case,

I'm dead serious. And "wind down" is the company's euphemism, not mine.

DL cut back MEM because the market was performing (snip) DL considered the simulators to ATL, only reasonable to expect cuts at MSP.

So in one post we see you cheering on the US NC to hold the line on scope, and in the next a laundry list of reasons why not to. You can't have it both ways, Josh. Pick one or the other and stick to it.

Why do the unions keep selling out the small stations? UA CBA as a recent example. So you think an airline should have ramp personnel at every city they serve?

Josh

Do I think they should? Absolutely. Cross utilized people at a bare minimum. Will it happen? I doubt it. Maybe the better question is why is it okay for a carrier to farm out an operation with 30+ flights/day? 50+?

 

[Kev3188]

I wish it was based on top out. Id b able to save $20+ a month. Conceivable? After how the iam hosed over its firstborn, yes.

 
No dispensation for B-scalers? if not, why not?
 
Not for nothing, 143 made those decisions at the Local Lodge level.

 

[737823]

I'm dead serious. And "wind down" is the company's euphemism, not mine.So in one post we see you cheering on the US NC to hold the line on scope, and in the next a laundry list of reasons why not to. You can't have it both ways, Josh. Pick one or the other and stick to it.Do I think they should? Absolutely. Cross utilized people at a bare minimum. Will it happen? I doubt it. Maybe the better question is why is it okay for a carrier to farm out an operation with 30+ flights/day? 50+?

Kev, I support them in maintaining and enhancing scope/job security. For you to suggest DL drawing down MEM as a station closure (factually untrue since it is still a m/l station) is outrageous. Yes it would be great for every airline to have ramp at every city but unfortunately that's not the case. Still waiting for you to explain how the MEM cuts wouldn't have happened if the IAM was still around.

And sure, stations with many flights should have m/l but didn't you say several posts ago the mindset shouldn't be "that's a small station, it's to farm out"? Yet you harp on DL for contracting MIA out but how many smaller stations have m/l ramp yet fewer flights than MIA?

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

Kev, I support them in maintaining and enhancing scope/job security.

Great.
 

For you to suggest DL drawing down MEM as a station closure (factually untrue since it is still a m/l station) is outrageous.

Outrageous? Dramtaic much?

I didn't call it a "closure." I included it in a list of locations that have seen cuts since the merger.


 

Yes it would be great for every airline to have ramp at every city but unfortunately that's not the case.

Indeed.

 

And sure, stations with many flights should have m/l but didn't you say several posts ago the mindset shouldn't be "that's a small station, it's to farm out"?

I don't know what that sentence means, but I'm all FOR staffing both small & large stations alike.

Here's what I wrote. It's post 698, FWIW.:

 

Lastly, let's (collectively) stop rationalizing station closures by saying "they're just small stations." Nothing's "small" about people losing their livelihoods or having to uproot...

If you're gonna quote mine, at least be accurate when you do it. Sheesh.


 

Yet you harp on DL for contracting MIA out but how many smaller stations have m/l ramp yet fewer flights than MIA?

Josh

Not nearly enough.

 

[Tim Nelson]

No dispensation for B-scalers? if not, why not?
 
Not for nothing, 143 made those decisions at the Local Lodge level.

Since you have been out of the iam, the iam changed its dues structure. There isnt anymore dispensation for lower wage earners.

Wind down? What a bunch of arses in management. I hope guys like johnny k and the rest had opportunity to keep full time somewhere. Cvg as well i see. United management is taking full advantage of unrestricted part time and pegged 750 rampers to either lose ft or take furlough in its first phase of what it calls "rightsizing". It sent out a letter crying that it lost $400 million in the last quarter as a result of missing its projected profit of $1.2 billion. Amazing how corporate greed can justify hammering loyal employees after making $800 million in a quarter. This is also where i become incredibly frustrated with this inept union leadership. Where is the outrage? Why hand over unrestricted part time and hammer your own members?

The iam141 union leaders are either corporate type bean counters who realize two part time members is double the membership and revenue of one full time member or they are intellectually mismatched in wit. Stupid s man. Really stupid s .
Thankfully members arent stupid and a strong opposition team too over the local leaderships in sfo and ord, and the strong opposition candidates dominated the ewr elections yesterday. If delaneys group of management passivists get 20% of the district vote at united next year i will be shocked.

Delaney wont be able to have anyones back who was riding his coattail.

 

[737823]

Tim,
Delaney first became employed by United nearly 40 years ago. How can he possibly be in good conscience for what his NC has done to destroy your craft with this concessionary agreement? What motivation did he have to push this thing through? Was he promised an international officer position or something? My point is he must be remarkably out of touch with the members he aspires to serve and likely hasn't done his day job in many, many years. Do these leaders not understand the disastrous implications of these agreements for the members at UA and the labor movement?

Josh