Notes from the AMFA 33 rally on 6-30

[finman]

Spin it however like beancounter, the facts remain regardless how you manipulate the abacus. yes we did have this conversation several months back, and your wrong now as you were then and history will prove it to be so!

Explain where I'm wrong. Do you believe in-house mechanic payroll has increased along with the vendor related costs? If there is a 75% decrease in the number of in-house mechanics, doesn't it stand to reason that there'd be a roughly 75% reduction in wages? Give me your spin on how the TOTAL cost of maintenance (in-house wages + vendor)has increased given these undeniable facts. This really isn't very complicated stuff, and it certainly doesn't take a "beancounter" to comprehend it.

 

[local 12 proud]

Explain where I'm wrong. Do you believe in-house mechanic payroll has increased along with the vendor related costs? If there is a 75% decrease in the number of in-house mechanics, doesn't it stand to reason that there'd be a roughly 75% reduction in wages? Give me your spin on how the TOTAL cost of maintenance (in-house wages + vendor)has increased given these undeniable facts. This really isn't very complicated stuff, and it certainly doesn't take a "beancounter" to comprehend it.

Ok I'll walk you thru it once again. when you contract maintenance to third party, you essentially lose all quality control of that work. It is a PROVEN fact that in house is superior to outsource, Ive seen it with my own two eyes and not by reading some chart and graphs from inside a cubicle. sure you have cut wages and benefits on the short term, but when repairs are not done properly and have to be reworked several times, and allowed to progress over time you will pay dearly, dont believe it finny? ask any Southwest mechanic who works in A/O and let them describe what they see when their planes come in for light checks after being hacked on in the last heavy. why don't you stick to figures and leave Aircraft Maintenance to those who have decades of experience and know what we're talking about.

 

[MCI transplant]

Ok I'll walk you thru it once again. when you contract maintenance to third party, you essentially lose all quality control of that work. It is a PROVEN fact that in house is superior to outsource, Ive seen it with my own two eyes and not by reading some chart and graphs from inside a cubicle. sure you have cut wages and benefits on the short term, but when repairs are not done properly and have to be reworked several times, and allowed to progress over time you will pay dearly, dont believe it finny? ask any Southwest mechanic who works in A/O and let them describe what they see when their planes come in for light checks after being hacked on in the last heavy. why don't you stick to figures and leave Aircraft Maintenance to those who have decades of experience and know what we're talking about.

<_< ----- Totally areed! One other thing you lose, it's knowing when you'll get that product back!

 

[finman]

Ok I'll walk you thru it once again. when you contract maintenance to third party, you essentially lose all quality control of that work. It is a PROVEN fact that in house is superior to outsource, Ive seen it with my own two eyes and not by reading some chart and graphs from inside a cubicle. sure you have cut wages and benefits on the short term, but when repairs are not done properly and have to be reworked several times, and allowed to progress over time you will pay dearly, dont believe it finny? ask any Southwest mechanic who works in A/O and let them describe what they see when their planes come in for light checks after being hacked on in the last heavy. why don't you stick to figures and leave Aircraft Maintenance to those who have decades of experience and know what we're talking about.

Well, we're completely mixing arguments here. I was talking strictly about the $31M increase in costs referred to in the article, and how that misses the massive decrease in payroll when talking about the total cost of maintenance. You used that clip to elude that NWA currently spends more money on maintenance than last year, which is in fact false. If your argument is a quality control issue, and how that might actually lead to increased total costs in thefuture, then don't refer to current YOY costs as evidence of that, since those current costs don't support your argument.

 

[local 12 proud]

Well, we're completely mixing arguments here. I was talking strictly about the $31M increase in costs referred to in the article, and how that misses the massive decrease in payroll when talking about the total cost of maintenance. You used that clip to elude that NWA currently spends more money on maintenance than last year, which is in fact false. If your argument is a quality control issue, and how that might actually lead to increased total costs in thefuture, then don't refer to current YOY costs as evidence of that, since those current costs don't support your argument.

Yea spend a dollar to save a dime!

 

[finman]

Yea spend a dollar to save a dime!

Or, as is the case here, you spend a dollar to save two to three dollars.

 

[local 12 proud]

Or, as is the case here, you spend a dollar to save two to three dollars.

Ok finny enjoy scabair substandard maintenance, in the end it will prove to be very costly. BTW you may want to keep those carpenter skills sharp!

good day!

 

[Necrophilias]

Ok finny enjoy scabair substandard maintenance, in the end it will prove to be very costly. BTW you may want to keep those carpenter skills sharp!

good day!

Locking out mechanics and filing bankruptcy are actions that never improve a maintenance program. If someone can't determine these facts on his own there isn't much point in telling him otherwise.

As a former frequent flyer on NW let me state that once I know a/c maintenance is an issue I don't need to know anything else. For me as a customer this problem was easy to avoid...I CHANGED AIRLINES! Stranding me in NRT, terrible employee relations, terrible customer relations and the unreliable schedule made this choice very easy.

 

[local 12 proud]

Locking out mechanics and filing bankruptcy are actions that never improve a maintenance program. If someone can't determine these facts on his own there isn't much point in telling him otherwise.

As a former frequent flyer on NW let me state that once I know a/c maintenance is an issue I don't need to know anything else. For me as a customer this problem was easy to avoid...I CHANGED AIRLINES! Stranding me in NRT, terrible employee relations, terrible customer relations and the unreliable schedule made this choice very easy.

Necro, some folks seem to lack the acumen that you possess concerning maintenance going to the lowest bidder. I've given numerous examples on these boards how this only delays a source of many unforseen troubles, a pandora's box. I often use Southwest as an example because for so long they contracted most of they're maintenance out to third party and are now building more maintenance facilities in order to increase on time quality aircraft, the old adage 'Pay Me Now, Or Pay Me Later' has finally come home to roost. anyone who believes that safety and quality can be bought on the cheap is delusional.

 

[robbedagain]

finman one example of bad maintaince done by third party is well the jan 2003 crash of USAIRWAYS EXPRESS Beech 1900D in CLT. MAINTAINCE was the primary factor in it due to the fact that the new hire at the WVA plant FAILED to properly install a part of the elevator correctly, the failure of his supervisor to make sure it was done correctly and the subsquent flights (9 i believe) all lead to the crash with the weight being a second factor. this is the main reason why NWA needs to bring back their striking AMFA folks. Get rid of the scabs. They are costing NWA a lot more than they bargained for.
I just hope that NWA doesnt have a real bad fatal crash, but given their bad mgmt-labor relation, and the fact they have unskilled maintaince scabs, i am afraid that it is only a matter of time before a fatal crash occurs

 

[jenny@nw]

Risks of loss

However, contingent employee arrangements
are not always as beneficial as they may seem.
Potential strategic risks of outsourcing include
overdependence on outsiders for critical
functions, difficulty in obtaining employee
loyalty and dedication, cost escalations in
long-term partnerships, and lack of complete
control over work quality, timing and scheduling.

These strategic risks must be weighed
carefully. If control of a function is critical to
the firm, outsourcing should not be selected.
However, many of these strategic risks can be
managed through proper contract negotiation
and vendor management. In no event should
they be ignored.

Other personnel risks of outsourcing
include the discouragement of training and
development. If we are to listen to Pfeffer, the
lack of a quality workforce will be damaging
over the long term. Additionally, provisions
should be made to control the firm’s exposure
to the potential lack of employee screening
which could increase workplace violence
exposures and create corporate liability for
negligence in hiring. Although a contingent
employee may not be on the payroll of the
company, the enterprise can still be legally
liable through vicarious liability for all actions
taken on behalf of, or furtherance of, the
company’s interest.

Depending on the nature
of the action such as damage to another company’s
property, insurance recovery should be
available through the firm’s general liability
insurance.

From: Risks of outsourcing –
applying risk
management
techniques to staffing
methods
Jane Marie Downey
Facilities
Volume 13 · Number 9/10 · August 1995 · pp. 38–44
© MCB University Press · ISSN 0263-2772

 

[jenny@nw]

Well, I know I just took a snipit of this balanced article however this is her argument on why outsourcing isn't a good idea.

People who have worked at the bottom, or those who don't have MBA and have never went through the loophole of doing a two year project will probably side with this argument because they have already seen it firsthand.

Quality isn't there nor is the control. This article went on and on about how companies who outsource should look into Theft insurance. h34r: FASCINATING! Oh by the way... why is it that suddenly we have more seat belt extendors being sold on ebay? Coincidence? Probably but why? link
Apparently in little Redtailville, quality isn't a priority.

Still yet, from being a manager myself who also was a department head of tiny someplace at one point, people do fudge numbers to keep their necks *AND* keep that money train going to their friends and relatives. So no matter what I see, I still feel that this plan is "flawed". Most likely poised for sale.

 

[Necrophilias]

Necro, some folks seem to lack the acumen that you possess concerning maintenance going to the lowest bidder. I've given numerous examples on these boards how this only delays a source of many unforseen troubles, a pandora's box. I often use Southwest as an example because for so long they contracted most of they're maintenance out to third party and are now building more maintenance facilities in order to increase on time quality aircraft, the old adage 'Pay Me Now, Or Pay Me Later' has finally come home to roost. anyone who believes that safety and quality can be bought on the cheap is delusional.

Sir:

I have no idea where airline executives get the idea that outsourcing is a good idea. This thought may have originated with an accountant who was on drugs.

Whether you are building/maintaining aircraft or industrial service machines such as our products, the principles of maintaining quality have the same base. This is never a finished product but rather a constant evolution. R&D, manufacture and maintainence are all best served when a given process is developed and fine tuned in house.

SCAB Mantra: I'd rather be one of the pets vs being one of the cattle.