Hate to tell ya.... oh . Well you will find out soon enoughNYer said:
If they have a formulated plan it's seems like a state secret.
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Hate to tell ya.... oh . Well you will find out soon enoughNYer said:
If they have a formulated plan it's seems like a state secret.
IMHO,FWAAA said:Your AA pension (frozen) will be the same dollar amount you would have received each month had the pensions been terminated and turned over to the PBGC with one caveat: you will be able to retire at age 60 or 65 without any reduction, while there might have been a reduction at age 60 if the plans had been terminated instead of merely frozen.
Because AA has to shovel cash into those pension funds forever, that cash is not available for your pay and benefits. In effect, you and every other non-pilot continue to accept reduced pay to "save the pensions," just like from 2003-2011.
MetalMover said:Since the IAM/TWU believe this alliance is a shoe-in, as do some posters on this forum, do you truly believe the two have NOT been meeting "unofficially" for when the BIG day arrives? Do you relay believe they have not met to discuss their future together as "partners" in this grand alliance?
No "official" meetings. Can you be so sure the key negotiators haven't met for "social mixer?" Maybe over a nice steak and scotch dinner? Are you that much in the know as to whether did NOT meet under ANY circumstance.NYer said:
The last public statement issued, by either side, was that they were not going to meet to discuss negotiations prep until their Association Agreement issues have been settled.
Have they been settled? If so, when is everyone going to find out what the settlement was.
And...If they're meeting together to get their act together towards negotiations, why is such a closely held secret?
Indications seems to be that they have not yet met to start the process of preparing for negotiations. I mean they haven't even announced who will be on the negotiating committee from the TWU side....Have they?
NYer said:
The last public statement issued, by either side, was that they were not going to meet to discuss negotiations prep until their Association Agreement issues have been settled.
Have they been settled? If so, when is everyone going to find out what the settlement was.
And...If they're meeting together to get their act together towards negotiations, why is such a closely held secret?
Indications seems to be that they have not yet met to start the process of preparing for negotiations. I mean they haven't even announced who will be on the negotiating committee from the TWU side....Have they?
Ask the NMB, from what I've heard they are waiting on them. What are we at , 6 months ?NYer said:
The last public statement issued, by either side, was that they were not going to meet to discuss negotiations prep until their Association Agreement issues have been settled.
Have they been settled? If so, when is everyone going to find out what the settlement was.
And...If they're meeting together to get their act together towards negotiations, why is such a closely held secret?
Indications seems to be that they have not yet met to start the process of preparing for negotiations. I mean they haven't even announced who will be on the negotiating committee from the TWU side....Have they?
I want no part of the Association or the IAMNPF. Better to wait a year than lose the ability to retire at 60 or 55 with a 15% penalty vs 65 with a 4.8% penalty each year prior to 65-and lose the freedom to work.Tim Nelson said:
I certainly hope this is not true. If they don't start working together after the holidays then I would suggest some pressures on the TWU would need to be organized. A lot of wasted time at a time when the environment is ripe for negotiations. No way Parker throws that additional 4% to the flight attendants if oil prices weren't tanked. How long will oil prices last so low? One dopey terrorist attack in the middle east and instability and oil goes through the roof. None of us should be begging the TWU to put politics aside and get to the negotiation table.
Also, at this point, with the extensive delays, the Association has gotta be the only way. I could imagine that if the TWU broke away from the association or blocked it, that we would waste another year prior to negotiations. This is almost insane! Now is the best time to negotiate, and a CEO claiming that low oil has allowed him to freely give more, but the TWU is dicking around playing the anti union role, instead of joining its AFLCIO brothers and supporting the membership. Yes, the TWU is being anti union by refusing to do what is right for its members. Good Grief!
And that is why it blows my mind that you have no problem with the employees of either the TWU, IAM or the "Association" not receiving the 4% until we have a joint contract. Hell, by your own words NYer, we can even get the folks we rely on for the 4% to meet. How hard is it to understand every day after Jan.5th that you don't have that 4% you are losing money.NYer said:Indications seems to be that they have not yet met to start the process of preparing for negotiations. I mean they haven't even announced who will be on the negotiating committee from the TWU side....Have they?
He has no problem with anything that screws workers and promotes anything the company wants.AANOTOK said:And that is why it blows my mind that you have no problem with the employees of either the TWU, IAM or the "Association" not receiving the 4% until we have a joint contract. Hell, by your own words NYer, we can even get the folks we rely on for the 4% to meet. How hard is it to understand every day after Jan.5th that you don't have that 4% you are losing money.
again perfect time to negotiate and the twu is NOTNYer said:
The last public statement issued, by either side, was that they were not going to meet to discuss negotiations prep until their Association Agreement issues have been settled.
Have they been settled? If so, when is everyone going to find out what the settlement was.
And...If they're meeting together to get their act together towards negotiations, why is such a closely held secret?
Indications seems to be that they have not yet met to start the process of preparing for negotiations. I mean they haven't even announced who will be on the negotiating committee from the TWU side....Have they?
MetalMover said:No "official" meetings. Can you be so sure the key negotiators haven't met for "social mixer?" Maybe over a nice steak and scotch dinner? Are you that much in the know as to whether did NOT meet under ANY circumstance.
I guess the LAA management never met "unofficially" with LAA prior to "official" merger talks either.
they should allow a choice for retirement. Even im concerned about tossing more money into the iampf when the iampf trustees decided overnight to rob half my pension. Valid point you have Bob but the TWU locked themselvesin this agreement. So, if you and the twu wants out, its up to the iam to grant that since your union signed a binding agreement. The only thing the twu can do is hostage us and hope the iam tears up the agreement.Bob Owens said:I want no part of the Association or the IAMNPF. Better to wait a year than lose the ability to retire at 60 or 55 with a 15% penalty vs 65 with a 4.8% penalty each year prior to 65-and lose the freedom to work.
I think the IAM is the one being anti-union, using their pension to leverage their guys into supporting forcing us all into it. In all the other groups the smaller Union stepped aside. The IAM and Jim Little, who was removed at the Convention for a host of reasons, including wasting millions of the treasury on foolish real estate ventures cooked up this scam.
I have no problem with the IAM saying they will back off as long as the TWU agrees to make funding the IAMNPF for those who are in it and want to stay in it. Thats the IAMs call. I don't think the company would object because it would be less expensive than funding the 5.5% match.
I cant see rushing into a bad structure, and the Association is about as bad as it gets with mix and match representation, just to get the 4%.
Look at how this Association is structured. BOS, DCA, RDU, PHL, EWR, JFK, LGA are all currently under the NE Division at AA. But the stations are to split between two Unions with this Association, some IAM some TWU. The NE Director decides to implement some new policy, thinks the contract allows it, he knows the IAM very rarely arbitrates anything so he calls them, they look at the language which is a carryover from the TWU agreement and don't really understand what it means so they agree to it, then the TWU stations say "No way". His response is the IAM already agreed to it? What next?? This association will be an utter and complete disaster for us, maybe its good for the treasury of the IAM and TWU but its bad for us and I don't see rushing into this for a 4% bump as very wise.
The IAM should either start a card drive or back off with the understanding that guys can stay in the IAMNPF if they choose to.
Let it go to a vote.
We can always argue for the Retro in negotiations.
Tim Nelson said:
I certainly hope this is not true. If they don't start working together after the holidays then I would suggest some pressures on the TWU would need to be organized. A lot of wasted time at a time when the environment is ripe for negotiations. No way Parker throws that additional 4% to the flight attendants if oil prices weren't tanked. How long will oil prices last so low? One dopey terrorist attack in the middle east and instability and oil goes through the roof. None of us should be begging the TWU to put politics aside and get to the negotiation table.
Also, at this point, with the extensive delays, the Association has gotta be the only way. I could imagine that if the TWU broke away from the association or blocked it, that we would waste another year prior to negotiations. This is almost insane! Now is the best time to negotiate, and a CEO claiming that low oil has allowed him to freely give more, but the TWU is dicking around playing the anti union role, instead of joining its AFLCIO brothers and supporting the membership. Yes, the TWU is being anti union by refusing to do what is right for its members. Good Grief!
Bob Owens said:I want no part of the Association or the IAMNPF. Better to wait a year than lose the ability to retire at 60 or 55 with a 15% penalty vs 65 with a 4.8% penalty each year prior to 65-and lose the freedom to work. --Get those cards in, you have a chance to get someone else on the ballot...if that's your preference.
I think the IAM is the one being anti-union, using their pension to leverage their guys into supporting forcing us all into it. In all the other groups the smaller Union stepped aside. The IAM and Jim Little, who was removed at the Convention for a host of reasons, including wasting millions of the treasury on foolish real estate ventures cooked up this scam. --The IAM is being anti-union by trying to protect the retirement of the Members they represent? You forgot to mention the AFL-CIO's participation in the "scam."
I have no problem with the IAM saying they will back off as long as the TWU agrees to make funding the IAMNPF for those who are in it and want to stay in it. Thats the IAMs call. I don't think the company would object because it would be less expensive than funding the 5.5% match. --Great, if the company won't object then this issue will be easy to deal with in negotiations. The IAM keeps what they have and the TWU keeps what they have. Thanks, Bob.
I cant see rushing into a bad structure, and the Association is about as bad as it gets with mix and match representation, just to get the 4%. Where's the rush? This thing has been stagnant for months. As a matter of fact, it allowed that one year prohibition on AMFA to bring in cards. I wonder if the pro-AMFA crowd has been working towards getting their vote or have they just been concentrating on derailing the Association vote. You'd think they could multitask.
Look at how this Association is structured. BOS, DCA, RDU, PHL, EWR, JFK, LGA are all currently under the NE Division at AA. But the stations are to split between two Unions with this Association, some IAM some TWU. The NE Director decides to implement some new policy, thinks the contract allows it, he knows the IAM very rarely arbitrates anything so he calls them, they look at the language which is a carryover from the TWU agreement and don't really understand what it means so they agree to it, then the TWU stations say "No way". His response is the IAM already agreed to it? What next?? This association will be an utter and complete disaster for us, maybe its good for the treasury of the IAM and TWU but its bad for us and I don't see rushing into this for a 4% bump as very wise. --Well it's a good thing that anything that has to do with the JCBA or national issues go through the Association and not the Locals. Phew!, that was a close one.
The IAM should either start a card drive or back off with the understanding that guys can stay in the IAMNPF if they choose to. --They also have the multiemployer health plan. Can they keep that too?
Let it go to a vote.
We can always argue for the Retro in negotiations. Good luck with that.