Not Getting the 4% Right Away is Actually an Advantage for MX

[NYer]

And that is why it blows my mind that you have no problem with the employees of either the TWU, IAM or the "Association" not receiving the 4% until we have a joint contract. Hell, by your own words NYer, we can even get the folks we rely on for the 4% to meet. How hard is it to understand every day after Jan.5th that you don't have that 4% you are losing money.

 
OK. I'm upset we're not getting the 4% right now.
 
Now what?

 

[WeAAsles]

Let's use the crystal ball to see how much leverage we have possibly.

First we're not going to be under Section 6 of the RLA and with that won't be able to use the tools that might afford us even being the worlds largest airline and more than likely will never be released to strike and hurt global commerce. On top of that of course we already among the Association both have CBA's that do not expire till 2018 anyway. 2018.

Second the company wants the synergy of having unanimous JCBA's signed. APFA = Accomplished, APA= Maybe soon? CWA= Have already started negotiations, and finally us. The IAM already signed off that we can touch there metal so that's about half the work done there.

Someone, anyone please tell me where our leverage is at? I'm not being a defeatist here or pro company no matter what people might think. I want a truly honest answer to where you see us having leverage in this process?

 

[Bob Owens]

Because AA has to shovel cash into those pension funds forever, that cash is not available for your pay and benefits. In effect, you and every other non-pilot continue to accept reduced pay to "save the pensions," just like from 2003-2011.

Delta's was frozen as well. Are you saying that you believe AA would go into BK just to dump the Pensions? 

 

[Tim Nelson]

Let's use the crystal ball to see how much leverage we have possibly.
First we're not going to be under Section 6 of the RLA and with that won't be able to use the tools that might afford us even being the worlds largest airline and more than likely will never be released to strike and hurt global commerce. On top of that of course we already among the Association both have CBA's that do not expire till 2018 anyway. 2018.
Second the company wants the synergy of having unanimous JCBA's signed. APFA = Accomplished, APA= Maybe soon? CWA= Have already started negotiations, and finally us. The IAM already signed off that we can touch there metal so that's about half the work done there.
Someone, anyone please tell me where our leverage is at? I'm not being a defeatist here or pro company no matter what people might think. I want a truly honest answer to where you see us having leverage in this process?

The iam only signed off at 12 of its stations but it triggers no station displacements. Thus, im not sure management has wanted to trigger that. Did they in mia?
At any rate, u cant b serious about where our leverage is, right? Its the same leverage that the other groups have, ie, joint contracts. I dont have the answers to the company plans but having two ramp contracts in place complicates things. History also should provide you with answers. For instance, the america west/lcc merger provided substantual gains with a joint contract. The contract still was awful but most employees got $4 pay raises and some got $6. Going thru two bankruptcies left most workers topped out at $15. Got rid of terrible seniority language and got extra holidaye, etc....and the company wasnt making alot of money.....but it still needed joint agreements.
The newly signed contrat was just relief from the terrible prior contract in the midst of section 6 where the nmb seemed fairly supportive.

Think of it like this, why would we want a new joint contract unless there was substantual improvement? Parker wants some things to. The proper solution exist.

 

[Bob Owens]

 --The IAM is being anti-union by trying to protect the retirement of the Members they represent? 
 
 

The only way its put at risk if if the IAM says you have to remain an IAM member to be in it. 
 

--Well it's a good thing that anything that has to do with the JCBA or national issues go through the Association and not the Locals. Phew!, that was a close one. 
 

Good thing? Good that all national issues get decided by appointed people who aren't elected where one can blame the other? What I was talking about were regional issues where you have one regional director dealing with two Unions. 
 
 

First we're not going to be under Section 6 of the RLA and with that won't be able to use the tools that might afford us even being the worlds largest airline and more than likely will never be released to strike and hurt global commerce. 

Thats not the process, being released has nothing to do with how it impacts the economy, thats where a PEB comes in. The whole idea of the RLA is to come to a resolution not to force workers to accept what ever the company offers or freeze them at current rates till they do. Yes the process can be drawn out, in our case it was drawn out because the TWU never made a serious effort to get released and go to the next step. IMO with the size of AA and being that a much smaller AA went to a PEB in 1997 we would have ended up in a PEB. I doubt that if we are prepared to strike that we will ever see a Strike at DL, AA or UA due to the heavy load factors and the huge amount of the market each of them have.
 
In the case of AMTRAK which was the longest mediation ever those Unions that were working under expired contracts continued getting COLA raises, so they really weren't overly concerned about getting a new contract, and the PEB awarded them retro as well. But we never even got close to that, Little/Videtich  were basically forcing us to accept a wage freeze until we agreed to a ZERO Cost contract. Its possible that in a PEB had the company demanded the ability to lay off workers and outsource more OH the PEB would have allowed that, but all who remained, everyone who is here now, would have seen compensation much closer to WN and not be at the bottom of the industry. Basically we would have been in the same position as Fleet, Stores, the Pilots, the Flight Attendants etc going into BK and as Tom Roth said, you are better off going in fat than skinny, our contract was already skin and bones after 2003.  
 
Getting released is not the end, its the end of mediation, if the Government decides to let both sides exercise self help then it can lead to a strike, otherwise it goes to a PEB  where they look at many things and come back with a recommendation they think is fair, and from what I've seen they usually are fair. The parties can still reject and exercise self help unless Congress intervenes, when they do, which is rare, they usually impose the PEB. 
 
But you are correct, we are not in Sect 6. The IAM was but they gave that leverage up , along with their part in synergies, to get our post BK wage rates. And some people actually believe they would be a good Union to partner with!

 

[AANOTOK]

 
OK. I'm upset we're not getting the 4% right now.
 
Now what?

Now what? How about stopping the spinning and preaching that it is fair, just and ok we won't receive it
until this mess known as the Association has NEGOTIATED a joint contract...Oh that's right, this 4% isn't NEGOTIATED!

 

[NYer]

Thats not the process, being released has nothing to do with how it impacts the economy, thats where a PEB comes in. The whole idea of the RLA is to come to a resolution not to force workers to accept what ever the company offers or freeze them at current rates till they do. --The whole idea is to come to a resolution, period. Their mandate is about protecting commerce, not workers.
 
"NMB’s statutory authority as national mediator for the airline and railroad industries is critical to public interest in maintaining an uninterrupted flow of U.S. Commerce...NMB expertise in mediation and its discretion to determine when it is that mediation has been exhausted, however, ensures that bargaining disputes rarely escalate into disruptions of passenger service and the transportation of commerce."
 
Yes the process can be drawn out, in our case it was drawn out because the TWU never made a serious effort to get released and go to the next step. IMO with the size of AA and being that a much smaller AA went to a PEB in 1997 we would have ended up in a PEB. I doubt that if we are prepared to strike that we will ever see a Strike at DL, AA or UA due to the heavy load factors and the huge amount of the market each of them have. --The TWU asked to be released several times during the negotiations that led up to the bankruptcy filing. The APFA asked to be released and the APA asked to be released. None were released. As a matter of fact, because of little movement in negotiations the NMB made all the parties sit on ice for quite some time. The only group that met during the period was the APA and the company and they did so without the attendance of the NMB.
 
In the case of AMTRAK which was the longest mediation ever those Unions that were working under expired contracts continued getting COLA raises, so they really weren't overly concerned about getting a new contract, and the PEB awarded them retro as well. But we never even got close to that, Little/Videtich  were basically forcing us to accept a wage freeze until we agreed to a ZERO Cost contract. Its possible that in a PEB had the company demanded the ability to lay off workers and outsource more OH the PEB would have allowed that, but all who remained, everyone who is here now, would have seen compensation much closer to WN and not be at the bottom of the industry. Really? So, in your mind your push to go into a PEB would have been worth it if compensation would have been brought much closer to WN. That's interesting.....I wonder if the OH guys agree?
 
Basically we would have been in the same position as Fleet, Stores, the Pilots, the Flight Attendants etc going into BK and as Tom Roth said, you are better off going in fat than skinny, our contract was already skin and bones after 2003. --Those other groups don't have a mantra that we "never get the best deal until the 11th hour of the 29th day."
 
Getting released is not the end, its the end of mediation, if the Government decides to let both sides exercise self help then it can lead to a strike, otherwise it goes to a PEB  where they look at many things and come back with a recommendation they think is fair, and from what I've seen they usually are fair. The parties can still reject and exercise self help unless Congress intervenes, when they do, which is rare, they usually impose the PEB. --So, you're OK with leading everyone down a path towards a PEB, which may or may not lead to deal but could also allow Congress to impose a deal for which the Membership would have no recourse and wouldn't be able to vote on. Isn't that the same things you hated about the last regime? You'd be willing to take the decision of the Members out of their hands and give it to Congress or give it to someone like Judge Lane during the BK.
 
Oh that's right. It allows you to continue to blame everyone for the positions you advocate for which the results never come.
 
But you are correct, we are not in Sect 6. The IAM was but they gave that leverage up , along with their part in synergies, to get our post BK wage rates. And some people actually believe they would be a good Union to partner with!

 

[NYer]

Now what? How about stopping the spinning and preaching that it is fair, just and ok we won't receive it
until this mess known as the Association has NEGOTIATED a joint contract...Oh that's right, this 4% isn't NEGOTIATED!

 
It isn't fair almost everyone got 4% and we didn't.
 
Is that better?

 

[AANOTOK]

 
It isn't fair almost everyone got 4% and we didn't.
 
Is that better?

How about this? It's not fair that nitwits like you at the TWU/IAM can't get their sh**  together enough to take advantage of the 4% Doug is offering. It's not ok that Doug only offered it to unions with contracts. But with spinners like you who can  cover the TWU, Association and AA with one spin, it's understandable nothing ever gets done...That's better!

 

[WeAAsles]

The iam only signed off at 12 of its stations but it triggers no station displacements. Thus, im not sure management has wanted to trigger that. Did they in mia?

I know that a few months ago they wanted one of our crews to work one of their flights and they were told no. I haven't heard of any other instance since then.


At any rate, u cant b serious about where our leverage is, right?

I'm always quite serious, many times even when I'm joking.

Its the same leverage that the other groups have, ie, joint contracts. I dont have the answers to the company plans but having two ramp contracts in place complicates things. History also should provide you with answers. For instance, the america west/lcc merger provided substantual gains with a joint contract. The contract still was awful but most employees got $4 pay raises and some got $6. Going thru two bankruptcies left most workers topped out at $15. Got rid of terrible seniority language and got extra holidaye, etc....and the company wasnt making alot of money.....but it still needed joint agreements.

Ok $6.00 for fleet. You just ratified a contract with the company that moved you up from I believe $20.50 to $23.00. Now 7% above the Delta Top Out rate comes to $26.55 which it appears the company will be offering since it's the same given to and offered to the APFA and APA. There's your $6 Dollars Tim. (The middle items of course being the ?)


The newly signed contract was just relief from the terrible prior contract in the midst of section 6 where the nmb seemed fairly supportive.

Think of it like this, why would we want a new joint contract unless there was substantial improvement? Parker wants some things too. The proper solution exist.

Of course the solution exists and of course the company is going to want something. What it is and what they want is where each of us have to decide if it's worth the price or not? Those negotiating for us will have to decide at some point since we know there will be substantial gains financially for the majority of the members if what the company wants to include and carve out is acceptable to let YOU and ME decide?

When I have a Full comprehensive TA to read on my computer screen is when I'll decide what box I want to check, yes or no?

 

[NYer]

How about this? It's not fair that nitwits like you at the TWU/IAM can't get their sh**  together enough to take advantage of the 4% Doug is offering. It's not ok that Doug only offered it to unions with contracts. But with spinners like you who can  cover the TWU, Association and AA with one spin, it's understandable nothing ever gets done...That's better!

 
All right....It's not fair that nitwits like me at the TWU/IAM (point of clarification, I'm not at the TWU/IAM) can't get our sh**  together enough to take advantage of the 4% Doug is offering.
 
Better?

 

[AANOTOK]

Let me think about it! B)

 

[MetalMover]

 
All right....It's not fair that nitwits like me at the TWU/IAM (point of clarification, I'm not at the TWU/IAM) can't get our sh**  together enough to take advantage of the 4% Doug is offering.
 
Better?

Is that all your support of the IAM/TWU lovefest is about? the 4%.. How about fighting to get "OURS" without a 4% "carrot" to hurry up and negotiate a contract that may screw us even further.

 

[NYer]

Is that all your support of the IAM/TWU lovefest is about? the 4%.. How about fighting to get "OURS" without a 4% "carrot" to hurry up and negotiate a contract that may screw us even further.

 
Absolutely. And the best way to avoid the "hurry up" let's get a deal approach is to be as prepared as possible before negotiations begin. That's not happening though. The quarreling of the merits of an Association over not is holding that preparation time.
 
We know the NMB will give a decision that the choices will include the Association and that's about it. There will be a 30 day window to get someone else on the ballot, but the probability of that are nil.
 
So, why isn't the leadership getting ready now, so there is not rush later. We are always wanting to get "ours" but at the same time we want to take our time and continue to push the can down the road? That makes little sense.

 

[MetalMover]

 
Absolutely. And the best way to avoid the "hurry up" let's get a deal approach is to be as prepared as possible before negotiations begin. That's not happening though. The quarreling of the merits of an Association over not is holding that preparation time.
 
We know the NMB will give a decision that the choices will include the Association and that's about it. There will be a 30 day window to get someone else on the ballot, but the probability of that are nil.
 
So, why isn't the leadership getting ready now, so there is not rush later. We are always wanting to get "ours" but at the same time we want to take our time and continue to push the can down the road? That makes little sense.

Let me ask you this NYer..Would you be willing to have more fleet service work outsourced and other negative work rule changes just to have this 4%? Another weeks vacation, sick time..holidays? Anything?