Not Getting the 4% Right Away is Actually an Advantage for MX

[Bob Owens]

 
Oh Brother! The line to look at is that those work groups will be at about 7% higher than Delta.
 
"In an unprecedented move, American management has announced a wage increase today for all employees with Joint Collective Bargaining Agreements...This means the flight attendant rates of pay will be 7 percent higher than those at Delta." --APFA
 
"American Airlines President Scott Kirby outlined specifics of the revised proposal in a letter to all pilots. In his letter, Mr. Kirby states that the proposal includes "a pay scale that provides pilots with increases of approximately 23% upon signing, bringing American's pilots to rates 7% higher on average than Delta's rates." --APA
 
For us, that would mean the mechanics should get a increase higher than Fleet and other groups as we all aim towards at least 7% more than Delta. (assuming Delta has the highest wages in each group)

Do Delta Pilots make less than SWA Pilots? How about UPS? Where will AA pilots sit in the industry, and by industry I mean all the majors, not just those that went through BK but the ones that have been included for decades. In wages alone we lag UPS by around 40%, add in the rest and its well over 50%. Do our pilots earn 50% less than any other pilots in the industry? How about our Fleet Service Clerks? Agents? Anybody other AMTs earn 50% less than the top paid in the industry? 

 

[Bob Owens]

Scorpion no matter what we are not going to be in Section 6 negotiations. As it stands if we are just talking about BASE rate for Fleet, 7% above the Delta top rate takes us to $26.55. On the TWU side we have a top longevity of .30 for 20 years of service. Add to that "maybe" the shift differential language that UAL fleet enjoys which is .53 Afternoons and .57 Nights and the 5.5% match the company gives me in my 401k and a Topped out 20 year clerk will be looking at a BASE (5.5% excluded from the math) of $27.42 (if he takes the night shift) or $57,033,60 per year with no extra hours worked above 40 per week.

Our Crew Chiefs make an additional $2.07 per hour. So now they would be making $29.49 or $61,339.20 again with no extra hours worked.

And that's not including also maybe some additions to our Holidays and the rates paid there? 

So now really? Looking at those rates you think knowing that we are not in Section 6 and the company at worst can say F it we'll wait till the contracts expire in 2018 you think we should put up the stone wall for Profit Sharing?  

Why do you add in the 401K match and not factor in Deltas (or UALs) Pension contributions? 

 

[Bob Owens]

 
Oh Brother! The line to look at is that those work groups will be at about 7% higher than Delta.
 
"In an unprecedented move, American management has announced a wage increase today for all employees with Joint Collective Bargaining Agreements...This means the flight attendant rates of pay will be 7 percent higher than those at Delta." --APFA
 
"American Airlines President Scott Kirby outlined specifics of the revised proposal in a letter to all pilots. In his letter, Mr. Kirby states that the proposal includes "a pay scale that provides pilots with increases of approximately 23% upon signing, bringing American's pilots to rates 7% higher on average than Delta's rates." --APA
 
For us, that would mean the mechanics should get a increase higher than Fleet and other groups as we all aim towards at least 7% more than Delta. (assuming Delta has the highest wages in each group)

Why would you "aim" for 7% higher than Delta? Why not aim for UPS? 
 
I recall Dons Logic of aiming low. He had help from Johnny Griffith in saying that we should aim low so if we get it the members will be happy, but if we aim high and fall short, even if that figure is much higher than the low target, that members will complain that we didn't get exactly what we were asking for.  Then once that Low figure was adopted it the argument shifted that we had to be flexible and move even lower than that figure. 
 
Going in at UPS is already a concession that deviates from nearly 75 years of airline collective bargaining where who ever went in sought to leapfrog off the highest paid. 

 

[WeAAsles]

Why do you add in the 401K match and not factor in Deltas (or UALs) Pension contributions? 

No conspiracy. Haven't look at the dynamics of comparing everything down to the red cent personally. I look at life from the viewpoint of am I happy or satisfied with the house that I live in. I don't worry about my neighbor and if he has a bigger house or drives a newer car.

It "seems" like that's your barometer to be satisfied in life? Not mine.

 

[NYer]

Why would you "aim" for 7% higher than Delta? Why not aim for UPS? 
 
I recall Dons Logic of aiming low. He had help from Johnny Griffith in saying that we should aim low so if we get it the members will be happy, but if we aim high and fall short, even if that figure is much higher than the low target, that members will complain that we didn't get exactly what we were asking for.  Then once that Low figure was adopted it the argument shifted that we had to be flexible and move even lower than that figure. 
 
Going in at UPS is already a concession that deviates from nearly 75 years of airline collective bargaining where who ever went in sought to leapfrog off the highest paid. 

 
Go for it. Tell your Members to turn down what ever comes that puts them in a better position than they are today and shoot for the UPS wages.
 
I will absolutely not post a single word about your advocacy to vote no on a 7% rate above United or Delta (whoever is higher at the time) in order to go for it all and get UPS rates and a 40% bump. If you think you can get it, then take your Members on that ride.

 

[NYer]

Do Delta Pilots make less than SWA Pilots? How about UPS? Where will AA pilots sit in the industry, and by industry I mean all the majors, not just those that went through BK but the ones that have been included for decades. In wages alone we lag UPS by around 40%, add in the rest and its well over 50%. Do our pilots earn 50% less than any other pilots in the industry? How about our Fleet Service Clerks? Agents? Anybody other AMTs earn 50% less than the top paid in the industry? 

 
UPS. They're Teamsters, right? Maybe there can be another try to get the Teamsters in here.

 

[Bob Owens]

No conspiracy. Haven't look at the dynamics of comparing everything down to the red cent personally. I look at life from the viewpoint of am I happy or satisfied with the house that I live in. I don't worry about my neighbor and if he has a bigger house or drives a newer car.

It "seems" like that's your barometer to be satisfied in life? Not mine.

Ok, maybe you will base the value of you house based on what you paid for it when you sell it instead of what similar houses in the neighborhood are going for but thats your approach to life, have at it, whatever makes you happy, but the question remains why would you include the 401K but not Deltas pension contributions? You don't think thats a little misleading to include it in the AA figure when you left it out of Delta? If you didn't have the figure for Delta you should have left it out of AA. Another thing you left out is in order to get the 5.5% you have to be able to contribute 5.5% of your own money since its a match, and 25% of the TWU membership doesn't even do that, my guess is a disproportionate number of that 25% is from Fleet where wages are lowest. 

 

[WeAAsles]

Ok, maybe you will base the value of you house based on what you paid for it when you sell it instead of what similar houses in the neighborhood are going for but thats your approach to life, have at it, whatever makes you happy, but the question remains why would you include the 401K but not Deltas pension contributions? You don't think thats a little misleading to include it in the AA figure when you left it out of Delta? If you didn't have the figure for Delta you should have left it out of AA. Another thing you left out is in order to get the 5.5% you have to be able to contribute 5.5% of your own money since its a match, and 25% of the TWU membership doesn't even do that, my guess is a disproportionate number of that 25% is from Fleet where wages are lowest. 

I don't consider UPS when you look at the financials of that company to be directly in my neighborhood. They may be in the same zip code as your house but it is a different subdivision. Now Southwest on the other hand is a part of our subdivision. But while we let our house get run down and sloppy which brought down the value they kept their house well maintained and in good order to demand a premium if they were to sell. Seems to be heading in the opposite direction though now comparing the two houses, but it's going to still take some time for the repairs to show.

No I don't know the particulars of what DL spends on any of their retirement packages since they are non union and those figures would be difficult to find on the net. I agree that many of the people who aren't making up the 5.5% are probably coming out of my group and it's a shame and have tried to preach to them to do whatever they can to get that in. But I also know that most DBP's in the industry were thrown on the PBGC and those who go to collect will take a cut that currently I won't see since mine was frozen and the company is making up for those shortfalls.

 

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
Go for it. Tell your Members to turn down what ever comes that puts them in a better position than they are today and shoot for the UPS wages.
 
I will absolutely not post a single word about your advocacy to vote no on a 7% rate above United or Delta (whoever is higher at the time) in order to go for it all and get UPS rates and a 40% bump. If you think you can get it, then take your Members on that ride.

 
NYer, I haven't been paying attention to all of the post on this forum but are you saying that Parker is or will offer the following:  
Instead of our "Pay Parity", $24.25 September top out base wage, instead offer $27.12 to reflect 7% above United [base/longevity and profit sharing]?
 
I'm not going to be fussy with that, but for those who may think that is a lot, it's highly likely that Southwest rampers will at least mirror the ticket agents and agree to $28 plus a great profit sharing plan.
 
Whether fair or not, I think something north of $26, for 2015, prolly gets a joint contract though from the ramp unless it comes with a price of other key items.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
NYer, I haven't been paying attention to all of the post on this forum but are you saying that Parker is or will offer the following:  
Instead of our "Pay Parity", $24.25 September top out base wage, instead offer $27.12 to reflect 7% above United [base/longevity and profit sharing]?
 
I'm not going to be fussy with that, but for those who may think that is a lot, it's highly likely that Southwest rampers will at least mirror the ticket agents and agree to $28 plus a great profit sharing plan.
 
Whether fair or not, I think something north of $26, for 2015, prolly gets a joint contract though from the ramp unless it comes with a price of other key items.

Tim the top base rate in comparrison to the two airlines not counting longevity will be DL at $24.81 over the UAL rate of $24.60 on 1/1/15. 7% above the DL rate takes us to $26.55 base.

Not talking at the moment about anything else (we'll see there) is that something that you think you could put your stamp of approval on?

 

[NYer]

 
NYer, I haven't been paying attention to all of the post on this forum but are you saying that Parker is or will offer the following:  
Instead of our "Pay Parity", $24.25 September top out base wage, instead offer $27.12 to reflect 7% above United [base/longevity and profit sharing]?
 
I'm not going to be fussy with that, but for those who may think that is a lot, it's highly likely that Southwest rampers will at least mirror the ticket agents and agree to $28 plus a great profit sharing plan.
 
Whether fair or not, I think something north of $26, for 2015, prolly gets a joint contract though from the ramp unless it comes with a price of other key items.

 
At the end of the day, the offers to the APA and APFA ended up being 7% above the Delta rates. So, before we even sit at the table, we can assume that we'll be looking for at least that 7% premium in pay rates. A new deal, if it's done in 2015, has a built in contractual raise. the wage adjuster, plus the 4%.
 
If everyone would sit at the table and try to create a game plan for negotiations, we may be able to put together a plan that could maximize our return in other areas such as scope, vacations, holidays and shore up contract language differences between the TWU and IAM CBA's.

 

[WeAAsles]

Oh and before someone comes on here and tells me what SWA, UPS, FED EX or my friend Mo the Garbageman makes back in NYC I don't care.

So I filled out the wrong application, ok. So what.

 

[Bob Owens]

I don't consider UPS when you look at the financials of that company to be directly in my neighborhood. They may be in the same zip code as your house but it is a different subdivision. Now Southwest on the other hand is a part of our subdivision. But while we let our house get run down and sloppy which brought down the value they kept their house well maintained and in good order to demand a premium if they were to sell. Seems to be heading in the opposite direction though now comparing the two houses, but it's going to still take some time for the repairs to show.
 

Well UPS is physically a lot closer to where I work than Delta is. The fact is they do the same job we do, if anything less because their cabins are not fitted for passengers. 
 
 
 

No I don't know the particulars of what DL spends on any of their retirement packages since they are non union and those figures would be difficult to find on the net. I agree that many of the people who aren't making up the 5.5% are probably coming out of my group and it's a shame and have tried to preach to them to do whatever they can to get that in. But I also know that most DBP's in the industry were thrown on the PBGC and those who go to collect will take a cut that currently I won't see since mine was frozen and the company is making up for those shortfalls.
 

The problem is you are spinning the 401K match in with the wage. Sure its compensation but so is Medical benefits, ours is the worst, vacation, again-the worst, sick time-again the worst, Holidays, -again the worst. Posts like that make it look like you are getting more like Overspeed and NYer every day. Early in 2009 Videtich was doing a road trip and telling our guys our total compensation package was around the same as Continental when you factored in benefits, well I looked at their contract and it came out that not only was their wage a little higher but their benefits were around $10,000 a year better. He stopped making that claim. 
 
Maybe you don't care what other people who do the same job as you get, maybe you are satisfied with what you got or maybe you aren't as deep into the bottom as mechanics are. 
 
 UAL and US were dumped in the PBGC, AA and Delta's were not, they were frozen. No changes were made at WN or UPS, I believe Fed Ex was frozen, then reinstated, then frozen, depends on Fred Smiths mood because they don't have a Union but he does pay his guys a lot better than AA does so they gan afford to put some money away. 

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
At the end of the day, the offers to the APA and APFA ended up being 7% above the Delta rates. So, before we even sit at the table, we can assume that we'll be looking for at least that 7% premium in pay rates. A new deal, if it's done in 2015, has a built in contractual raise. the wage adjuster, plus the 4%.
 
If everyone would sit at the table and try to create a game plan for negotiations, we may be able to put together a plan that could maximize our return in other areas such as scope, vacations, holidays and shore up contract language differences between the TWU and IAM CBA's.

I'm assuming that the TWU INTL leadership has already formulated a plan and addressed that with the IAM INTL, and NMB, and that things will move forward after the first of the year.
 
There would be nothing stopping that, nor anything that can rival that other than insanity and stubbornness.  At any rate, there needs to be some communication on this prior to January 31, because this prosperous environment just isn't going to last forever.  I've been in this industry for 30 years and it is so volatile that it would make no sense in waiting.  These are the best of times to negotiate, and hopefully, sanity prevails. Not saying the two unions went about this the right way, but what is done is done, so let's move forward.

 

 

[Bob Owens]

 
At the end of the day, the offers to the APA and APFA ended up being 7% above the Delta rates. So, before we even sit at the table, we can assume that we'll be looking for at least that 7% premium in pay rates. 

Assume we will be looking for or assume thats what they will be offering?