New line maint stations opening

[700UW]

Good post, but if you are not a licensed A&P you cant sign the logbook or job card, thats Federal.

 

[WorldTraveler]

thank you for your honest and informative post, Dawg.

Local station overages are nothing new at DL. DL has long made sure that they would have enough system slots available to absorb local overages when leveling has to occur.

On a very few occasions has DL had systemwide leveling and then systemwide bumping rights have been used.

DL doesn't allow systemwide bumping for local overages but they also have more than enough spots open to protect those who will be displaced from a city.

And yes DL has more than enough maintenance positions open that some people could end up better off (different city) than they could have had if they had to bid based on their seniority.

 

[Kev3188]

 

Nope Feel for those 40 guys. Honestly, that is a big reason why I wouldn't want to leave Atlanta.

Can't say I blame you...

They have open AMT spots all over. 
Delta needs bodies in TechOps.... more should be coming out on this soon. (might be a lot of pissed off AMTs...but they will be okay)

Like a freezing kind of deal?

Thats not how it is at Delta. At the end of the day you do what your told. (but! on my side at least, they don't tend to make crap up on the fly. Sure you may have a crap head lead or foreman, but I see a lot more rules broken than taken advantage of.) 
 
but I have heard my fair share of stories from the ramp.

From my observer's perch, there is a very real idfference in how Tech Ops is treated/communicated with and ACS... 
 

Delta seems to change how they handle reductions every time it happens.

^This^

Actually, it seems like every situation is handled differently...

Now days they do a good job of finding a job or adding a spot in a different shop that needs the help.

Good to hear.

 

[blue collar]

Good post, but if you are not a licensed A&P you cant sign the logbook or job card, thats Federal.

Wrong. You can sign certain items off in a logbook or on a job card without a license. It's different at all carriers, because it falls under their maintenance program - which is approved by the Feds. Non licensed people cannot sign an airworthiness release though.

 

[southwind]

Nope Feel for those 40 guys. Honestly, that is a big reason why I wouldn't want to leave Atlanta. 
Most of the time when they DGS you, you can still move to another shop. Hard to do that outside of ATL. (MSP would be the 2nd safest place, but I'm sure they will Dallas it at some point......so maybe Mexico) 
 
 
They will take a voluntary leave as the last resort. Delta will offer an early out for DTW. Then see what happens. After that they will give everyone a list of opening to bid. If you don't want to bid then you get a package to leave. 
 
They have open AMT spots all over. 
Delta needs bodies in TechOps.... more should be coming out on this soon. (might be a lot of pissed off AMTs...but they will be okay)
They don't do that WT. If they say 40 will go, 40 will go. 
 
The biggest question is will 40 go and 20-30 contractors come in. 
 
 
yep. 
At least for Delta. Who knows, may see some spots open for DGS. 
 
generally Line does do quicker work than Hangar. I know they can generally get an engine change done faster if it isn't done in ATL/MSP
 
Its a reduction in RON/RAD. They may be trying to flow even more of those checks over the maint. bases than last year. IIRC they had a record number of RON/RADs done at the hangar in Atlanta last summer. 
 
The PSV lines slow down, or stop completely. So they are trying to fill those bays with more RADsRONs
 
while they are getting new to Delta aircraft, outside of the 739s, the other aircraft coming in (717s/M90s) are old enough that they aren't going to save on much MX time. 
and really, because the bulk of the 717s are growth(for mainline) aircraft, it is really covering up the removing of 757s with 739s. 
TechOps is a little thin as I said above. 
 
Welcome to the airlines. 
The only thing that would maybe happen is they get money to move. It doesn't sound like any of these guys will have to leave Delta. DTW? yes, but Delta should have enough AMT jobs to go around. (and it doesn't sound like they are going to get #### canned into a high cost station. I bet all of them will get offered a spot in ATL and or MSP along with other line stations.) 
I don't know why this keeps coming up. Yes, Delta does have the ASM program, but out of like 12,000 people at TechOps I think ASMs are like 2,000 system wide. (compared to like 7,000-8,000 AMTs.) 
A good bit of work that is done by ASMs is sent out of house at other airlines. (IIRC UAL, for example, doesn't do the cabin work in house that Delta does with ASMs) 
 
also, things like plane washing, parts washing etc. Are done by non-A&Ps. Again, this is work that would simply be gone if it wasn't for the ASM/MUE program. 
Also, till recently Delta did a good job of flowing the ASMs with there tickets up to AMTs. Its getting a little back logged but it sounds like its going to be addressed somewhat. (and thats not all Delta's fault, people just aren't leaving as fast) 
 
as for the singing, I don't know how it works for sure once the cards leave the floor, but at Delta you sign with your employee number for you work. AMT or ASM. I haven't ever seen an AMT signing for work done by an ASM. (of course, I don't know how it works once things get upstairs or outside of ATL) 
So if an ASM does a filter change on an engine, the ASM signs his name and his employee number. If an AMT does the same work then the AMT signs his name and employee number. 
 
 
I mean I know you hard core pro-union guys just hate the idea of having someone without an A&P working on airplanes or even in the hangar.....and your just as out of touch with reality as the outsource everything group. Delta has a great balance of it and it has saved a ton of work that would be gone if it wasn't for those jobs. Delta is sucking with the influx of contractors for sure....but they do a good job with the ASMs. Its not like the bulk of a PSV line is done by an ASM. 
 
Of course some of you guys also think 60 bucks an hour is only fair too. stupidity like that is a big reason why the craft is dying. 
in this case it would be laid out in the contract how things would be done. That would be it. SCOPE would be SCOPE. Work rules would be work rules. etc. etc. Thats not how it is at Delta. At the end of the day you do what your told. (but! on my side at least, they don't tend to make crap up on the fly. Sure you may have a crap head lead or foreman, but I see a lot more rules broken than taken advantage of.) 
 
but I have heard my fair share of stories from the ramp. 
 
Delta seems to change how they handle reductions every time it happens. Generally it depends on the size of the cutting. 
 
During BK they did more bumping and such because of the large scale of people heading out the door and stations closing, reducing etc. Now days they do a good job of finding a job or adding a spot in a different shop that needs the help. 
 
A good example, The contract bays had to lose 60 AMTs when World left. So Delta added 60 AMT spots in back shops, the engine shop, Test cell and PSV bays. I don't believe anyone had to leave Atlanta. Heck some of those guys were happy to get to move to the Engine shop/cell. (no idea why....but that seems to be a dream job for a ton of people) 
now if 1,000 people had to go.... more than likely they would have allowed bumping and stuff like that. (could be ATL only or system wide) 
 
I, personally, don't have a preference. I like that they really try to inconvenience the least amount of people possible, but on the flip side I'd be pretty pissed if I could hold a spot in say MCO but got stuck going to LGA/LAX/JFK while someone 10 years junior to me is holding a MCO spot.
 
Also Delta does look at the ripple effect. The way they are handling DTW wont effect the company like allowing bumps would. 

Well, you've gone and done it now..............you just blew 700's sh!t out of the water, dammit!
 
Couldn't you just say, without a union, DL will fire these people on the spot, no questions asked!

 

[topDawg]

Good post, but if you are not a licensed A&P you cant sign the logbook or job card, thats Federal.

 
no its not. Delta's ASMs sign their cards. Its part of Delta maintenance program. (at least in Atlanta)
Delta has departments that don't have any AMTs in them at all.
 
As for the logbook, I don't believe ASMs can sign off on the log book. Avionics can though. (and you don't have to have your tickets/FCC to be an 06. Again, part of Delta's approved MX program)   
 
you know what, I'm not even sure that is true. They may even be able to sign off in the log book. I know they are trained on it. 
 
Delta could add a lot more ASMs, but don't. That is the big difference between Delta and airlines like American.  

thank you for your honest and informative post, Dawg.

Local station overages are nothing new at DL. DL has long made sure that they would have enough system slots available to absorb local overages when leveling has to occur.

On a very few occasions has DL had systemwide leveling and then systemwide bumping rights have been used.

DL doesn't allow systemwide bumping for local overages but they also have more than enough spots open to protect those who will be displaced from a city.

And yes DL has more than enough maintenance positions open that some people could end up better off (different city) than they could have had if they had to bid based on their seniority.

Well its hard to cut 1,000 people in Dallas and not do system wide bump down. 40 people out of 12,000+ though.....
 
DTW will shake out to who can hold the spots. The bottom 40 will have to move. (assuming no one leaves early, but I bet at least 10 will) 
As far as doing better, it will depend. I mean, in the aircraft maint side, generally you are where you are because thats what you want to be (if you have 7-8 years or so) 
Most guys who work line wont want to come to a shop or the hangar. I would want to hang myself if i got stuck in the engine shop. I can't even think about being in some back shop. I really don't wanna touch the line...
so it will all be the person. 
 
but the pay will be the same, as this shouldn't mean any ASMs getting to move to AMTs. 
 

 

Can't say I blame you...


Like a freezing kind of deal?


From my observer's perch, there is a very real idfference in how Tech Ops is treated/communicated with and ACS... 
 

^This^

Actually, it seems like every situation is handled differently...


Good to hear.

Yes, they are talking about some kind of freeze. I have heard, just in rumor that they are thinking they are 200-400 short for current needs, and could be 500+ for future needs. 3 new stations may be just the beginning. 
Because they have had so many AMTs bouncing from shop to shop they can't really fill the holes. 
 
It is a shame they treat you guys different, but I don't think I'd work the ramp without a union at Delta. 

 

[topDawg]

Well, you've gone and done it now..............you just blew 700's sh!t out of the water, dammit!
 
Couldn't you just say, without a union, DL will fire these people on the spot, no questions asked!

I'm not sure I would be dishing out much crap if i were you champ. 
 
As pro-union as some are, you love to jump in with the "UNION DUES!!!!! OMG we are all gonna die" horse sh!t as fast as the pro-union guys love to beat up Delta. 
 
I know this might sound crazy, but its not all black and white. Delta does good things, but they also do terrible things. (contractors, DGS, Mexico hangar etc.etc.) 

 

[700UW]

At US some of the avionics guys from Piedmont are grandfathered in, they have to have their FCC license to sign off the logbook.
 
At the time of the merger, most of the avionics guys had to go out and get their A&P, Piedmont merger that is.

 

[topDawg]

At US some of the avionics guys from Piedmont are grandfathered in, they have to have their FCC license to sign off the logbook.
 
At the time of the merger, most of the avionics guys had to go out and get their A&P, Piedmont merger that is.

Delta hasn't done that. I mean a good bit of the guys have them....but they don't sign with them. (and they don't get paid for having them, they get AMT base pay but only get licence and a half, vs two licence pay). 
 
Delta only has like two or three back shops that require and pay for an FCC. The rest of the 06 spots are done by having so many hours of avionics time. 
And you can build avionics time in some of the shops as an ASM. Example, the shop that does chillers, coffee makers, lie-flat seats, some other small parts, will count toward the avionics time. I know 4 or 5 guys who have spent a few years in there then moved out to the hangar as an conehead, or move to one of the avionics shops. 
 
I am personally waiting for Delta to require them to get their tickets, but it hasn't happened yet.  

 

[700UW]

I was talking about line avionics, wasnt sure if you knew that.

 

[Kev3188]

I know this might sound crazy, but its not all black and white. Delta does good things, but they also do terrible things. (contractors, DGS, Mexico hangar etc.etc.)

Quite right.

 

[blue collar]

At US some of the avionics guys from Piedmont are grandfathered in, they have to have their FCC license to sign off the logbook.
 
At the time of the merger, most of the avionics guys had to go out and get their A&P, Piedmont merger that is.

Those guys don't use their FCC license to sign off a logbook. They use a repairmans cert issued by the company. And they get paid the same license premium as someone who holds an a+p. Makes those line guys feel good that their two tickets are worth the same as a guy with a repairmans and an FCC. Oh, and those of us with an a+p and an FCC only got paid for two of those licenses.

 

[WorldTraveler]

And tell me what is the rough seniority of those people and when did DL hire the last person with those qualifications who are working as they are.

If there are as few as the handful that Dawg mentions, no union is going to win a case in kicking a few people out of an existing job.

If DL continues to hire people to do that, then I can understand the angst but there would have to be alot more people involved if that was the case.

I get that you like what you do and why you have no desire to move elsewhere - and I strongly bet that you do your job very well. But tell me again why DL is in the wrong because you want to continue to build typewriters when the world has all moved on to Word decades ago?

You harp on the Mexico hangar but can you tell us where other carriers send their airframe overhauls and if the other airlines stand a chance of recovering anything from the companies to which they outsource. The work is going out the door. At least with the AM JV, DL has a chance of gaining engine and component business in return, something other carriers are not doing.

 

[southwind]

I'm not sure I would be dishing out much crap if i were you champ. 
 
As pro-union as some are, you love to jump in with the "UNION DUES!!!!! OMG we are all gonna die" horse sh!t as fast as the pro-union guys love to beat up Delta. 
 
I know this might sound crazy, but its not all black and white. Delta does good things, but they also do terrible things. (contractors, DGS, Mexico hangar etc.etc.) 

Never said DL was the perfect company. I just look at how AMT's @ other airlines , that are represented by a union, are doing compared to us and sorry, just don't see the benefit.
And please tell me what airline "Hasn't" outsourced work? Thing is, at TechOps they at least brought in work that actually "MAKES" money for the company!
Never said a group shouldn't be able to vote a union in, just said they need to live with the outcome of that vote!

 

[robbedagain]

What cities does delta have their line maintaince vs say amt stations?