New line maint stations opening

[700UW]

if you think that the employees of AA negotiated the reductions they got in 2003 or 2011, then you truly have a very different reality than they do.

The company successfully both times used the threat of 1113 to force labor to give back enough that the company didn't have to move forward with a full legal process.

The process is immaterial. The results are what counts. AA employees are now - 12 years after 9/11 - with lower pay and soon to be more layoffs than their peers at other airlines who have also been thru mergers. (hard to say how many layoffs UA employees will endure).

Still doesn't change that you and I can debate this stuff all day long but DL ACTIVE employees have voted and will vote and neither you or I will be part of that decision.

If DL employees are not content with what they have, they should vote... and I support their attempts to try and find something better if they think they can get it.

Show the board where there werent negotiations.
 
You are lying again.
 
So you keep avoiding the facts, why did PMNW employees fare better in Chapter 11 than PMDL?
 
So show us where Ramp, FAs, CSA, M&R, and RES negotiated during Leadership 7.5 and Chapter 11 at Delta.

 

[blue collar]

Actually 700, the way I remember it- the TWU members didn't ratify. It was passed without further ratification. OTOH, the IAM members ratified the bk contract. The judge may have said he would abrogate- but the IAM put it out for a vote and it passed. To me- that doesn't mean abrogated, that means ratified.

 

[700UW]

The TWU voted and ratified.
 
I was in court, the Judge ordered the IAM to bring it out for a vote or face immediate abrogation, remember I was on the NC.
 
And I never said abrogate means to ratify, the Judge could have abrogated and imposed the final offer, he held the ruling in obeyance and forced the IAM to bring it out for a vote.

 

[blue collar]

Yeah yeah, we all know you were on the nc. Still, members ratified. Not abrogated. And the TWU members didn't ratify, the international did- if I remember correctly.

 

[Kev3188]

... airlines have had pretty good success at getting unions to capitulate when put under pressure.

Or various workgroups recognize the sacrifices needed in order to try and save the airline they've invested their respective careers in.

Either or.

if you think that the employees of AA negotiated the reductions they got in 2003 or 2011, then you truly have a very different reality than they do.

The company successfully both times used the threat of 1113 to force labor to give back enough that the company didn't have to move forward with a full legal process.

Conversely, if you think DL doesn't use the Fear of Loss strategy to it's advantage, you too may be operating in a different reality...

Still doesn't change that you and I can debate this stuff all day long but DL ACTIVE employees have voted and will vote and neither you or I will be part of that decision.

Not for lack of trying, though, eh?

Actually 700, the way I remember it- the TWU members didn't ratify. It was passed without further ratification. OTOH, the IAM members ratified the bk contract. The judge may have said he would abrogate- but the IAM put it out for a vote and it passed. To me- that doesn't mean abrogated, that means ratified.

Not sure if you two are talking about US or NW here.

FWIW, at NW, the ramp/stock clerks turned down our initial offer. The judge then had both sides get back to the table, and the 2nd CBA was ratified. For the AMT's, they were already working under an imposed CBA (from 12/05), and I don't think anything material was changed during 1113?

 

[blue collar]

Sorry Kev, I was talking about the 2nd usair bk contract.

 

[700UW]

I was in court were you?
 
The Judge abrogated the US/IAM CBA, he held the ruling in obeyance and forced the IAM to take out the final offer for a vote.
 
http://www.post-gazette.com/business/businessnews/2005/01/07/US-Airways-pact-with-8-800-machinists-tossed-out-by-bankruptcy-court/stories/200501070161

US Airways' pact with 8,800 machinists tossed out by bankruptcy court
 

 
http://www.twu.org/blog/tabid/84/vw/1/itemid/383/-twu-members-at-american-airlines-ratify-agreement-for-mechanics-and-related-%28mr%29-and-stores-worker.aspx
 

TWU members at American Airlines Ratify Agreement for Mechanics and Related (M&R) and Stores Workers
 

http://twulocal568.org/docs/MR%20Vote%20%26%20Little%20Letter.pdf

 

[blue collar]

Good for you.
The iam put it out for vote, and it was ratified.
Oh, and as far as the TWU? I was referring to 2003, not 2012. In 2012 the members did ratify

 

[swamt]

Hey Blue,  I too remember the 2003 concessions were imposed WITH OUT ratification.  It was declared as a pass by the TWU international and specifically ordered by Jim Little. 

 

[Airlinelifer]

your missing the point. This kids is Delta's problem. excuses excuses and even more excuses. 
How many times have you said something negative about the mexico hangar, contractors, outsourcing etc? if you aren't making a stink about it, your helping destroy us just as fast as the unions have. This is the problem. American. United. Southwest. FedEx. etc can have 0 mechanics...none. nada.......and it doesn't have a single small ounce of crap to do with Delta work. none! You should be fighting for the HMVs, the components, the engines....etc that are sent out. That should be done in house. period. 
giving up and just being happy or finding a positive is killing our craft.  
 
and if Delta needs to cut a bunch they do that. 
but in the here and now, they are already short of people and trying to work it out....they are trying to cause as small of a blip as they can. Again, positives and negatives. 
 
 
 
He knows what they want because they haven't changed it. To a point, WT is right. Let me see, I can join the TWU, IAM, IBT and AMFA and get screwed over.....or I can work for Delta. They have some of the highest amount of insourcing, some of the best pay etc......and is a great place to work. On the TechOps side they take care of you. 
and they are trying to make money using TechOps. 
 
I'm glad you guys are happy with your unions, cause yall have done a much, much, much better job of dragging us down than anyone at Delta. the latest case, the TWU being chicken s**ts in AMR's BK set us back even more. Matter of fact, you guys probably lost any chance of bring all overhauls back in house we had. Thanks, good work. *rolls eyes*
 
you want to know why a union isn't really talked about? because for our craft the union has been such an epic fail that its pointless. Maybe if that side ever gets its crap together....
 
sometimes its better not to mess with the many, to help the few. 
 
and the TWU was complete worthless and a bunch of chicken s**ts. 
Why is that the excuse for the unions. Didn't the pilots and the FAs have the contracts tossed......how did it really screw them?
 
the AA AMTs had a chance, but are so split between the crazy and the supper crazy that they just screwed all of us. 
Hey man if you buy into that horse crap good for you. How many contracts has Delta gotten because of it so far? I haven't seen a single one. 
 
Why? because its s a smoke screen. Airlines don't care about that stuff. Delta doesn't send a single engine, not ONE, to a vendor that does its overhauls. Why? because it doesn't matter. 
 
Delta is building that hangar for one reason, the outsourcing of overhauls has been a complete and total fail. They have changed vendors three times for most airplane types in the 6 years the original contracts would have lasted. They stay in the bays longer and the margins are getting smaller and smaller.
Hell, they don't even say its cost anymore to us. Now its dock time. "oh we don't want a plane in the dock for a month....." this has happened with Delta before.....every single time they send big work out, it fails in a few years, then comes back. Delta's cost are simply to low.  
 
They are, at the end of the day, just scared of people like you. It just cost to much because it just does. Thats what wall street thinks. It is simply not the cool thing to do anymore. 
 
I have heard they are down to saving 10-20M a year(from 50 at the time the work was sent out) in cost savings. Then you factor in the potential cost of the airplanes sitting in the hangar for an extra month............ i would be willing to bet it comes out to be about even.
 
 
matter of fact, I'm starting to think that if wall street wouldn't have a complete fit, you would see that hangar space in Mexico being added in the US. TechOps doesn't do other airlines HMVs just because those airlines are stupid.  
but the real problem is the lack of fight from the TechOps employees. They just fall in line. 

You hit the nail on the head TopDawg:
 
"but the real problem is the lack of fight from the TechOps employees. They just fall in line."
 
That can be said about the nonunion work groups at D E L T A, they to "just fall in line."

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Not sure if opening line mx @ MCI makes a lot of sense… a lot of the flights there aren't even mainline

 

[WorldTraveler]

given you many of large RJs are on the schedules in the west, including a lot of E175s, there has to be upgrades of RJ flights in the eastern part of the US.

DL pilots are being told that the rate of 757 retirements is being slowed and hiring is increasing based on that which combined would say that DL intends to upgrade aircraft on a lot of flights - or add alot of new flights - by the summer.

Thus, MCI and other cities could be seeing alot more mainline flying.

The day after UA announced its CLE reduction, the CLE airport authority reported that one carrier told them their schedule at CLE would move from being a mixed RJ/mainline operation to being a full mainline operation. It could be DL or AA but the 717 is already in CLE.

There will likely be alot of cities where this will happen, esp. since the number of large RJs allowed by the pilots is limited.

 

[topDawg]

outstanding perspective from an ACTIVE DL mechanic.

esp. this

"you want to know why a union isn't really talked about? because for our craft the union has been such an epic fail that its pointless. Maybe if that side ever gets its crap together....

"sometimes its better not to mess with the many, to help the few."
.......i always feel like you sit at your computer for hours figuring out to twist ones words. 
----

as for outsourcing airframe maintenance, I can understand your argument. I don't think anyone can doubt that anyone can do the work better or faster than US workers -and that is true whether we are talking about AA, DL, or US.
​the difference between Delta and the other big three(WN,AA,UA) is our cost are lower. IIRC it was 10 cents+ per ASM lower. 
Why? our people per plane is lower.  (and i think compared to UA/AA it was a nice margin lower)  
but you can't also argue that airlines should just create hundreds of new jobs to bring work back in the US when there is ample evidence that business growth in the US is being hindered by growing regulation, including Obamacare which will add hundreds of millions of dollars in costs to DL - because they have said so.
sure I can. Delta is creating hundreds of jobs in Mexico....why can't it be done here? 
Again, you keep bringing up cost. Cost. Cost. cost. I'm telling you the company has even acknowledged that the margins on the work that is sent out is getting smaller and smaller and smaller. So even with all the cost pressure in the US, Delta still sends the work out and it is very marginally done cheaper. (and again, we aren't adding in the potential cost of the aircraft......that cost would probably make it flat or loss making to send the aircraft out) 
 
In other words, you wall street guys who really don't know whats going on, are quickly running out of excuses. 
As for the Mexico hangar, it is not open is it? If it isn't, then it probably isn't a surprise there are no contracts. If it is, then I would expect there is a ramp up period before they want to start aggressively going after contracts.
uhhh......do you know how that kind of thing works? 
lets say they have a three bay hangar, do you think they want the hangar open, tooled and staffed......then wait days, weeks, months, years for a plane to come into a bay? 
 
In other words, your saying they will build, staff, tool the hangar....then bid on contracts. think about that, then try again with a better excuse please 
DL might not send out engine overhauls along with airframe overhauls, but other airlines do, even if it is to different vendors. It has to do with technical expertise. DL wins engine business because it is worth it for airlines in other parts of the world to truck an engine for several hundred miles to an airport that DL serves to then fly it to the US, have it overhauled, and then repeat the process. That is a fairly high degree of expertise in order to justify that kind of process, esp. when the margin on that type of work is well into the double digits.
so now you are back tracking. Mexico is to get engine work for Delta. but its not. but it is. but not really. 
 
​see this is yalls problem. A half way intelligent human takes all the political and wall street talk and ignores it, then shoots your logic all the s**t. Delta's engine shops, back shops and US hangars will gain very, very little from that hangar. If TechOps cost to much now, its still going to cost to much (or to slow, or doesn't have a the ability, etc) with or without Mexico. they have nothing to do with each other. nothing. 
 
So your and management's party line of how its going to magically bring in allllll this work to Atlanta is a bunch of horse crap. It is another way to try to get control over Delta's HMVs because they refuse to bring it back in house like it should be. thats what it is. 
The lack of any contracts or even.....much talk at all about the building..... is just even more proof. 
Even if DL wanted to do its overhauls in house they would have to acquire enormous amounts of hangar space since airframe overhauls take up a lot of space and all of the US airlines have significantly cut the amount of inhouse hangar space they have. Even though some quality spacemight exist in the US, it would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to acquire maintenance space necessary to bring back any significant amount of airframe overhauls.
horse crap it would cost hundreds of millions. My goodness. 
AAR is grabbing up hangar space like its friggin nothing. Delta just made nearly 3 billion they can afford to build a MX base or two to handle the overhaul work. 
 
Of and again MEXICO!!!!!!!! Or are you telling me the Mexico hangar will be free.............?
Given that DL is aggressively paying down debt and paying cash for new aircraft, the cost to start bringing maintenance back in house is very high.
not
even
comparable
Heck, US cities would be falling all over themselves to build a facility(s) for Delta. you don't think the City of Atlanta and State of Georgia wouldn't magically find space/money for another Jet base at ATL? 
thanks for the tip, but I can assure you that I have no influence on Wall Street or mahogany row.

 

[topDawg]

 

That ersatz "happiness" is something this airline spares no length in trying to manufacture.  

very true to a point. 
but even then, I know the people at TechOps just believes everything the company says. 
I don't think many, if any, know that our new COO, exEVP of TechOps was a key part in ripping the NW Maintenance dept to pieces. I don't know, but i have a hunch that West is a key reason for the large influx of contractors at TechOps. It didn't really start till after Tony gave up control and went to Cargo. 
 
and they don't care, but Delta wouldn't do that. Or bring in contractors. Or shut down Tampa. Or build a hangar in Mexico. Shut down Dallas. Send HMVs out. etc. etc. etc.
 
 

You hit the nail on the head TopDawg:
 
"but the real problem is the lack of fight from the TechOps employees. They just fall in line."
 
That can be said about the nonunion work groups at D E L T A, they to "just fall in line."

 
non-union? Um, DALPA is just as much the companies b**ch as the non-union employees.  

Not sure if opening line mx @ MCI makes a lot of sense… a lot of the flights there aren't even mainline

ATL/MSP are all mainline, DTW/SLC also have mainline, LAX/LGA are all DCI. 
 
Heck BNA has less mainline(only ATL/LAX are mainline). MSY on the other hand is almost all mainline, only JFK/MSP are DCI. LAX/SLC/DTW/LGA/ATL are all mainline. 
 

given you many of large RJs are on the schedules in the west, including a lot of E175s, there has to be upgrades of RJ flights in the eastern part of the US.
why? Delta is bringing in more RJs too. So far the 717 is doing a good bit of taking over for DCI in Atlanta, then those RJs are moving to the other hubs. 
DL pilots are being told that the rate of 757 retirements is being slowed and hiring is increasing based on that which combined would say that DL intends to upgrade aircraft on a lot of flights - or add alot of new flights - by the summer.
don't base anything Delta does off hiring. lol. 
Thus, MCI and other cities could be seeing alot more mainline flying.

The day after UA announced its CLE reduction, the CLE airport authority reported that one carrier told them their schedule at CLE would move from being a mixed RJ/mainline operation to being a full mainline operation. It could be DL or AA but the 717 is already in CLE.
Delta is almost all CRJ besides 1 CR7 to LGA and the 7 ATL flights. MSP/DTW/JFK are all CRJ. I imagine Delta and other will increase flying to CLE, but I just can't see Delta going from basically all DCI to all mainline.  
There will likely be alot of cities where this will happen, esp. since the number of large RJs allowed by the pilots is limited. with basically 400 large RJs and 125 50 seat jets, I don't see this happening to "alot" of cities at all. 
 
but that has little to do with Delta line staffing. They staff based on many different things. Like I said above, BNA isn't really a huge mainline station. Heck CLT is much larger and it doesn't have a Line station. 

 

[Kev3188]

 

very true to a point. 
but even then, I know the people at TechOps just believes everything the company says.

and they don't care, but Delta wouldn't do that. Or bring in contractors. Or shut down Tampa. Or build a hangar in Mexico. Shut down Dallas. Send HMVs out. etc. etc. etc.

I guess easy not to care when it's always happening to someone else at some other station.

The company is also quite masterful at spinning those types of things into "good news stories."