Management Presents "plan" To Afa

[repeet]

whatkindoffreshhell
Posted on Feb 12 2004, 11:55 AM

You folks got a lightning bolt up the arse and even that didn"t do the trick

There is no time for wimpy "management must change" and cosmetic improvements to your business model.

Why can't you accept that you and your union are just being strung out until the plug is pulled?

We understand.

We've had enough. Either management will start acting civil, or this company will die.

Hear that, PULL THE PLUG ! ! !

Then our leadership can explain go GECAS and the ATSB how they had to close the airline, and defaut on their loans, because breaking the Unions was more important than money.

The company must honor their contracts. If we quit, they win.

In order to get rid of us, they must lay us off, and then pay unemployment benefits. We're staying until they carry us out, and then they will have to pay us for being forced out.

If they want anything, and we mean anything FROM us again, we're going to have to see some profit in it, and continued employment doesn't cut it under the current conditions.

We're willing to listen to their proposals, and consider their problems. But we're holding on to the pittance we have left, and standing our ground, until management changes to the point that we feel that we can trust them.

That means, until management makes some major changes, Full (reduced) Pay to the Last Day ! ! !

 

[firstamendment]

Kitty and First,

AFA is bound to "confidentiality" of the plan on the particulars. You will definitely know the plan. The big piece for labor, is what is the cost for our participation. This is where the queezyness comes in. But the very first thing for management to do now, is start the bridge building with labor.

Thanks Pitbull. Any idea when we will definitely see the plan?

 

[76200]

Regarding the new Reserve System,



At least on the pilots side, from what I've heard, the

people responsible for this product are either junior,

don't fly actively, or are furloughed.



While this new reserve system was being devised, there was no

information being distributed until near the end product.



What happend to membership input, especially from those folks

on reserve ?


76200

 

[funguy2]

While its nice to see that there is some communication going on...

Its all been discussed over and over and over:

Rolling Hub / Increased Utilization
Fare Structure
Corporate Culture

Blah Blah Blah

When is the company actually going to implement ANYTHING? (Other than concessions, that is...)

The question is no longer what does this company need to do. The question now is how to do it, and how quickly can it be done. Unless these are the details that cannot be discussed by the source, then this meeting was pointless... Just more Blah Blah Blah...

 

[700UW]

What people have to realize, NO airline has even been saved from taking the blood from its employees.

 

[BoeingBoy]

What people have to realize, NO airline has even been saved from taking the blood from its employees.

Ah, but there are other airlines that are taking the other necessary steps to compete and not relying on the "blood" from their employees to be the only solution.

Jim

 

[ktflyhome]

funguy2: Ya know, I have been asking myself that very same question all morning, since I first read the post. What was the Point????? Is this some last ditch effort to put a little band-aid on the booboo. Like I said earlier in a post, my stomach is feeling queazy. <_<

 

[usfliboi]

What people have to realize, NO airline has even been saved from taking the blood from its employees.

Simply NOT TRUE!!!!!!!! Your correct in the sense of doing just that "only" However CAL was a combo of many higher paid jobs and before it was all over with , the entire system was gutted including employee work rules and pay! For the most part they didnt have a choice.

 

[tadjr]

Its all been discussed over and over and over:


Fare Structure

When is the company actually going to implement ANYTHING? (Other than concessions, that is...)

The question is no longer what does this company need to do. The question now is how to do it, and how quickly can it be done.

Well, now there are two majors who've done it so I guess we can officially follow now again instead of being a leader.
Alaska simplifies fare structure starting this weekend

 

[UseYourHead]

UseYour Head

Just a question. Have you gotten your first 71 hour paycheck? Brace yourself. It IS about money. Let me give you an example. If I were on reserve and only got my 71 hrs and didn't fly a trip, I would be looking at a $1000, or more paycut. When you consider I make $3000 now, that 's a hell of a percentage difference. Plus, the new system sounds great when you hear "balancing", as if it's about being fair, but everyone loses now. The most senior reserve went from bad to worst. At least in the pass, they could have a life. Now they are skipped over. This is about the company not having to pay overtime...period. When you take a thousand dollar cut in pay, hotel cost for commuters becomes more costly AND more often on this sytem. One f/a I know has paid over $500 a month in hotels thanks to this system.

I just don't think you will ever see an 80 guarantee.

As I stated on another post, I have been on reserve since 1999, with a brief stint as a lineholder during "turbo-growth". I know full well what the monetary difference is between 85 and 72, or 76 hours. As I qualified on the other post, the pay issue is a big one, and with proper staffing, everyone could fly more hours allowing the justification of a higher guarantee.

If everyone is flying 2 trips on a "time-balance" system, what could one conclude from that? We have more people than hours to fly when the time is distributed in a more balance system. This new system good for the company? Of course it is, when compared to the old system. It is a clear productivity give, no question about it, and will result in less bodies required to staff the airline. I do care about furloughs, so lets expand the airline.

But lets get back to the original intent of my post; I said, with an increase in guarantee minimum to say near 80 hours for pilots, IMHO it is a better system than the old for more pilots on reserve. Why?

1) There will be fewer reserves under this system that lives will be adversely affected

2) For all the wonderful flexibility that senior reserves had, the middle to bottom towed the line on the old system (example: senior reserves could fly on all days off, leaving no chance of flying for junior reserves except for holidays and so on).

3) The old line "you will be senior someday" has resulted in 15-20 years of people’s lives being subjected to that kind of life at the bottom.

4) Now that we have everyone’s attention, maybe something will really get done to treat all crewmembers like people who have lives, families, and have deserved better working conditions for years. What about the people who have had to have those hotel rooms for the last 15-20 years?

I find it interesting now that the seniority list is shrinking that all of a sudden the sky is falling...crewmembers have been living under a crappy reserve system for decades, and NO ONE want to hear a peep about it. They have been spending everyday in base, and just making min. pay.

I am not the one complaining here, I think the Bottom 30% of reserves have a much better life, and they deserve it.

So where do we go from here? Well to start with we all care about this subject, and then the reserve system has a chance to get better.

Try this idea:

Divide your labor group into 4 groups by seniority, A, B, C, D.

A is senior for three months for bidding, then it goes B, C, D, A with A being on reserve for 3 months, then C, D, A, B now on reserve, and so on.

You can bet your booty that we would make sure that we get a livable system then!

Or how about this idea: Everyone at the airline gets 3 consecutive days of reserve in his or her line every month? Or allow people to bid reserve into line holder lines....

I have worked under all these concepts, they work fine, and EVERYONE is treat with the respect and dignity they deserve when spending a career at an airline.

Think about it!

 

[BoeingBoy]

usfliboi,

Apparently you either aren't that familiar with the events surrounding CAL's transformation or choose to ignore them since they don't fit your views.

The CAL employees were indeed beaten down by management and bankruptcy. But as 700UW implied, that did not save them. Under the management that beat them down CAL was headed to oblivion. Only new, more enlightened management turned CAL around - a little detail you overlook. The new management accomplished the task by improving the performance through positive incentives and growing the airline.

Jim

 

[UseYourHead]

QUOTE (700UW @ Feb 12 2004, 07:10 PM)
What people have to realize, NO airline has even been saved from taking the blood from its employees.

usflyboi Said:
Simply NOT TRUE!!!!!!!! Your correct in the sense of doing just that "only" However CAL was a combo of many higher paid jobs and before it was all over with , the entire system was gutted including employee work rules and pay! For the most part they didnt have a choice.

usflyboi,

You are correct and that tired old concept is just flat out not true.

I would add one, try Northwest on for size too. They were on Chapter 7's doorstep in the 90's (with some of our management group) took massive cuts, changes in labor contracts and look at them today. It is really lame to claim labor has no part in this battle of survival.

We are 42% of costs, it is a no brainer that we all have a stake in, and will affect the outcome.

 

[756pro]

QUOTE (700UW @ Feb 12 2004, 07:10 PM)
What people have to realize, NO airline has even been saved from taking the blood from its employees.

usflyboi Said:
Simply NOT TRUE!!!!!!!! Your correct in the sense of doing just that "only" However CAL was a combo of many higher paid jobs and before it was all over with , the entire system was gutted including employee work rules and pay! For the most part they didnt have a choice.

usflyboi,

You are correct and that tired old concept is just flat out not true.

I would add one, try Northwest on for size too. They were on Chapter 7's doorstep in the 90's (with some of our management group) took massive cuts, changes in labor contracts and look at them today. It is really lame to claim labor has no part in this battle of survival.

We are 42% of costs, it is a no brainer that we all have a stake in, and will affect the outcome.

usfliboi and useyourhead:

It's so painfully obvious that both of your agendas are to try to make labor come around to MANAGEMENTS way of thinking. Both of you are management incognito and I don't care what you claim! NW and Cal both cut their work force in half and outsourced tons of work. Do you believe that after we took two concessions and TONS of headcount loss people are willing going to lay down and die, sure they will. At least have the balls to admit who you are. Doing otherwise is pathetic and makes look management worse than they already are.

 

[funguy2]

Simply NOT TRUE!!!!!!!! Your correct in the sense of doing just that "only" However CAL was a combo of many higher paid jobs and before it was all over with , the entire system was gutted including employee work rules and pay! For the most part they didnt have a choice.

usfliboy:

I have to go with Boeing Boy on this one.

Frank Lorenzo gutted employee contracts, early 1980's via a bankcruptcy code that allowed it (since been changed).

Bethune (and company) revived the company beginning in the early 1990's. CAL had gone through a second bankruptcy prior to Bethune's arrival, and the future looked bleak. When Bethune arrived, they were still a hodge-podge of CAL, NYAir, PEOPLExpress, and Frontier, and were still operating aircraft in multiple tempory liveries (i.e. the old CAL logo on a tan PEOPLExpress background, for example).

So here is the point: Lorenzo's restructuring, which involved gutting employee contracts, multiple acquisitions, asset swapping, etc landed CAL right back in bankruptcy court within 10 years.

Bethune's restructuring was based on employee incentives, fleet simplification, new public relations / logo, hub focus (especially EWR), etc as laid out in "Worst To First". So far, 10 years later, CAL seems to be doing as well if not better than the other legacy carriers.

Let's not get into revisionist history - Bethune's turnaround did not come on the backs of employee's. Lorenzo's failed turnaround (10 years earlier) did.

P.S. Not trying to bring up a big Lorenzo discussion. I know the mention of his name riles people whose lives were decimated by his actions. That is not my intent.

 

[airlineorphan]

UseYourHead sez:

We are 42% of costs, it is a no brainer that we all have a stake in, and will affect the outcome.

UseYourHead,
Are you sure this figure is correct? Are you sure you aren't quoting the labor costs/revenue ratio? Which is not particularly instructive if you have a management team that does everything to sabotage the revenue side of that formula.

What would be interesting to see is what the labor cost/total cost ratio is, and what percentage of that cost is attributable to the inefficiency with which management organizes the operations (3.5 hr productivity breaks in EWR, etc....).

Anyway, could someone clarify this? I find it maddening the way labor cost/revenue ratios got bandied about at one of Siegel's early roadshow presentations back in May of 2002. Pretty soon people unclear on the concept were picking it up as a percentage of costs. Sometimes you don't even have to lie with statistics in order to be misleading!

In solidarity with my former coworkers.
Still furloughed.... -Airlineorphan

P.S. PITbull-- Tell Teddy and Mollie to give them hell! :wub: