Let''s Talk Facts About Bankruptcy

[RV4]

Nobody has claimed any "victory" occurred.

You type your own thoughts, and I will type mine.

In fact, we have done nothing more than proven "employee concessions" are not the answer to a mis-managed company.

BTW KCFlyer, what is the value of your "Shared Sacrifice" in the current T/A's?

 

[RV4]

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On 4/8/2003 1157 AM WO/drone wrote:

Mmmmmmm, what kind of "workers paridise" does RV4 want?
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What do you mean?

 

[RV4]

 

[RV4]

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On 4/8/2003 9:58:18 AM AAviator wrote:


These facts?

Briggs is a motor carrier located in the upper midwest. In 1978, it employed over 2,000 people. Since that time, it has failed to turn an annual profit and has consistently laid off many of its workers. On January 25, 1983, the company filed a petition for reorganization under Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Code. At that time, it employed approximately 1,100 people. After filing its bankruptcy petition, Briggs closed thirty-five of its fifty-seven terminals and laid off around 800 more employees. It now employs nearly 400 persons, 300 of which are represented by the unions which are defendants in the present action.


Briggs is now out of business.

The court succinctly stated, "[W]hile Bildisco may have authorized Briggs to cut its employees' wages * * *, it does not prohibit the employees from complaining." Briggs Transportation Co. v. International Brotherhood of Teamsters

Everybody now!

God bless America, Land that I love, Stand beside her, and guide her.....


From the good book of Archie Bunker: Meathead. Dead from the neck up.

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How can it "now employee 400 people" if it is "out of business"?

And so they should have worked 60 hours a week, for minnimum wage and accepted whatever the greedy bastards offered?

GET REAL! At some point workers must stand to protect themsleves from the elite.

AAviator, your true unionism shines through! Or should we say anti-unionism? Only the management behind the alias knows?

If your post is FACT :

Your post only proves that CONCESSIONS will NOT SAVE A COMPANY...

Thanks for the FACTS! Anyone else want to give it a try?

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 4/8/2003 10:41:50 AM RV4 wrote:

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Thanks for the FACTS! Anyone else want ot give it a try?​

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Well,. let's do the math that you have cited in your facts. The company employed 2000 people at one point. Times were tough, so they reduced staffing by 45%. Let's say that AA employees 122,000 people, so they will cut 45% - that lowers them to 67,100 employees. Then they file bankruptcy and shed another 63% of the workforce (as Briggs did). That gets them down to 24,827 employees. But...and this is important - those 25,000 folks have the right to picket. I dunno - but you don't seem to have a problem with Briggs laying off 80% of their workforce - your only concern seems to be that the remaining 20% had the right to picket. Seems like a helluva lot of concessions there. What's your seniority number...1??

 

[RV4]

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On 4/8/2003 10:59:42 AM KCFlyer wrote:

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Well,. let's do the math that you have cited in your facts. The company employed 2000 people at one point. Times were tough, so they reduced staffing by 45%. Let's say that AA employees 122,000 people, so they will cut 45% - that lowers them to 67,100 employees. Then they file bankruptcy and shed another 63% of the workforce (as Briggs did). That gets them down to 24,827 employees. But...and this is important - those 25,000 folks have the right to picket. I dunno - but you don't seem to have a problem with Briggs laying off 80% of their workforce - your only concern seems to be that the remaining 20% had the right to picket. Seems like a helluva lot of concessions there. What's your seniority number...1??​

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In contrast, show us where the concessions saved the company from it's problem management?

Briggs sounds much like Lorenzo and Eastern Airlines.

Concessions didn't work there either.

 

[Wild Onion]

Dave,

I have yet to read how you think we are better off in bankruptcy. Fear? Yes, we''re all afraid. There''s nothing wrong with that provided we still make well thought out decisions.

You have asked repeatedly for facts, and we have all tried to reply. So now I ask you: How does it benefit us, the workers (all workers) to enter into bankruptcy. Please be as specific as possible, with the understanding that there are many variables going forward which cannot be known.

I have an open mind. Really. But I need to know why we''re all better off letting the bankruptcy judge and the creditor''s committee deciding our fate.

 

[WO/drone]

Sorry too many screens at once, that was Continental.

 

[KCFlyer]

American employs 122,000 people. You sign "full pay til the last day". What happens on the first day after the last day? There are now 121,999 other people in the job market, which, in case you haven''t noticed, isn''t all that great. What then? IMHO, that would be a pretty shallow "victory".

 

[RV4]

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On 4/8/2003 11:07:57 AM KCFlyer wrote:


American employs 122,000 people. You sign "full pay til the last day". What happens on the first day after the last day? There are now 121,999 other people in the job market, which, in case you haven't noticed, isn't all that great. What then? IMHO, that would be a pretty shallow "victory".

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I guess we visit the Bankruptcy Judge ourselves and rely on the rich to feed us via Government Handouts.

All this does is create more dependent Liberals. But that in itself isn't the end of the world. Liberals do a pretty good job of using fear and intimdation to keep their ranks in line also, so we should be good and well practiced dependents.

 

[FWAAA]

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On 4/8/2003 1157 AM WO/drone wrote:

Mmmmmmm, what kind of "workers paridise" does RV4 want? Chrysler came out of bankruptcy with concessions and is strong, Southwest came out of bankruptcy and is still here, heck New York City did it too. Then again TWA went in the red more than once, and when the creditors could not run it, bye bye. Remember contracts are signed by both parties not just management. Good luck to all!!

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When did Southwest file for bankruptcy??

 

[WO/drone]

Mmmmmmm, what kind of "workers paridise" does RV4 want? Chrysler came out of bankruptcy with concessions and is strong, Southwest came out of bankruptcy and is still here, heck New York City did it too. Then again TWA went in the red more than once, and when the creditors could not run it, bye bye. Remember contracts are signed by both parties not just management. Good luck to all!!

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 4/8/2003 1118 AM RV4 wrote:


BTW KCFlyer, what is the value of your "Shared Sacrifice" in the current T/A''s?

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My "shared sacrifice" is this - I can choose to fly American or Delta to Dallas. I can choose to fly American or Delta to San Juan. I can choose to fly American or Delta to Paris. I don''t much care for Delta, so in most cases, I''d choose AA over DL. But I care more for the dollars in my bank account. Why would I or anyone else risk losing them because you are willing to let a bankruptcy judge determine if AA still serves those cities, or if they become a feeder line for Mesa? My shared sacrifice is the money I use to buy the tickets on your airline. When I question the continued existance of your airline, I''ll be tempted to spend my dollars elsewhere.

 

[Winglet]

KCflyer - You''re getting VERY cheap tickets right now . . . below cost. Once the gross overcapacity problem is solved by UAL, AA, U, CAL, DAL, or all of them going chapter 7, you''ll really see what the price of a ticket will be. If you don''t like the airline industry right now, wait about a year . . . . then you''ll really hate it. Very high prices and limited choices.

The airline business is much too capital intensive to adjust to wide swings in demand. As long as the government intends to allow the free market to prevail (except for the politician''s 30% taxation) this industry is going to continue to boom and bust. If you work in this industry, it''d be best to get the hell out now . . . . if you can.

 

[KCFlyer]

Winglet - I''m not talking about saving money on airfare - I am talking about paying for a ticket on American when (if Dave is an indicator) the unions are demanding "full pay to the last day" and willing to believe that their options are better in front of a bankruptcy judge. If the chapter that gets filed before the judge is 7 and not 11, then I am lower than dirt when it comes to getting any of my money back. I''m not saying the ticket prices are too high. Only that, given my options (and I am already looking at sending several in my family to San Juan in a few months), then why would I put my money on an airline that might either be cut back to a "regional" carrier level, or go completely out of business? Yeah, the public has gotten so used to the "dime a dozen" bankruptcies that are being filed that some might not care. I am of the belief that somewhere the other shoes gonna drop and a bankruptcy judge will just order someone to liquidate. Seeing that they have heard already from United and USAirways that there is too much capacity, what would stop the judge from deciding that liquidating AMR might cure this overcapacity problem?