Largest Airline needs Mechanics Union

[Overspeed]

Really? What do you base that on since AA is the only one to use spend instead of Man hours? Doesn't our contract allow that once our 757 fleet gets downsized to the point where its no longer cost efficient to keep AFW RR open that our spend limit will increase to at least 45%, just like what you claim is industry standard but we still wont be getting industry standard pay, benefits or work rules? I know I've read that many times here and you never put up much of an arguement.

you are right, its not Line vs Base, its false unionists like you who will always come up with another excuse for concessions vs those who are willing to fight for their profession. Rolling over and giving the company everything they want may be suffering but it sure as hell isnt fighting. The TWU never fought to save or get anything at AA since I've been here. It was always roll over and live to fight another day, so don't come here and claim the TWU fought to save jobs that SWA gave away. thats a lie on all counts, because they never fought the company to save jobs and SWA never gave any jobs away, they never had them. Over the same period that SWA has been around we gave away more jobs and gave away more benefits, more work rules and more pay than even non-union workers, and we even gave away more, as 700 is quick to point out, than the IAM did at US.

 
I base the outsourcing percentage based on what is reported to the DOT. http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2012%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Productivity/MX/Percent%20of%20Maintenance%20Expenses%20Outsourced.htm
 
AA's numbers are high based on the fact that all RB211 and Trent engines are reported as outsourced work on the P&L. If you add that spend back in the outsourced work percentage drops to around 12% to 13%. TAESL is staffed by TWU AMTs as you know. And yes the percentage can be adjusted at set intervals when the work drops off over the years. If that is the case then the percentage would probably move up about 5% I would expect. That RB211 work would probably impact the number of jobs that we have working on those lines/shops. Around 300 I think? 
 
I would expect that once the US/IAM M&R CBA is finalized and the JCBA work starts moving forward the outsourcing formula will probably changed since the IAM language is based on hours and the TWU is based on expense.

 

[1AA]

I would expect that once the US/IAM M&R CBA is finalized and the JCBA work starts moving forward the outsourcing formula will probably changed since the IAM language is based on hours and the TWU is based on expense.

Your expecting too much from the TWU or the IAM. Parker does not even want to negotiate with the IAM on the USAir side. They are locked in Mediation and the company has the advantage. It's like stuck in the snow and you can not rock back and forth out of the ditch.

 

[Thomas Paine]

Oh I have provided numbers to SWAMT. The ratio of AMTs to aircraft has dropped from a high of 4.0 to 2.9 which means that while the fleet grew, they added fewer AMTs and have outsourced more work. Maintaining the status quo would have resulted in approximately 300 to 400 more AMTs making $40 plus. 
 
You can look at all the ratios here for all reporting airlines http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2012%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Productivity/MX/Average%20In%20House%20Maintenance%20Employees%20per%20Aircraft.htm

How many SWA mechanics have been laid off? Ratios mean nothing, nowhere in our contract does it state how many mechanics per airplane AA will have. Do you really think that any mechanic is concerned about the ratio more so than layoffs and paycuts? Its a BS figure that you use to attempt to support your lies because its all you have, the facts show where the truth is. Many factors affect the ratio such as equipment, age of equipment, operation etc.

You made the claim they gave away jobs in order to get a few guys more pay but real numbers and real people prove your claim to be false. No SWA mechanic has ever been laid off, so your claim is a lie. Thousands of AA mechanics have been laid off since 2003, so your claim that we gave concessions to save jobs is a lie and your comparison between the two carriers carries zero credibility. The facts are the exact opposite of what you stated. SWA mechanics have never been laid off , their headcount continues to climb and they have the best contract for mechanics in the industry, in the meantime AA has laid off thousands, reduced headcount by thousands more than the RIFs and we have the worst contract in the industry. Those are real facts that directly affect the mechanics working under those deals and even you can not deny that they have increased their head count and SWA mechanics enjoy greater job security and much better pay than their AA counterparts.

 

[1AA]

 
Oh I have provided numbers to SWAMT. The ratio of AMTs to aircraft has dropped from a high of 4.0 to 2.9 which means that while the fleet grew, they added fewer AMTs and have outsourced more work. Maintaining the status quo would have resulted in approximately 300 to 400 more AMTs making $40 plus. 
 
You can look at all the ratios here for all reporting airlines http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2012%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Productivity/MX/Average%20In%20House%20Maintenance%20Employees%20per%20Aircraft.htm

Has SWA furloughed any AMT's? Ratios does not mean they furloughed anyone. It just means they did not hire as many to keep the ratio higher. Newer aircraft require less maintenance. Earlier 737's are considered more maintenance intense than the newer generation and the more hours they accumulate the more intense and man hours required. Take a look at your our own back yard. The new Airbus's will fly until it needs a C check and it gets returned for a new one. AA made a deal for the new 737's heavy's to be outsourced. Should I mention the future of our 757's and MD-80's?
When all is said and done what will our ratio at AA look like? That depends on the back door deals the TWU will make to try to save as many jobs as possible. So our ratio in the future is as clear as the formula for our equity stock distribution.
 
Common denominator of the two? TWU!

 

[Thomas Paine]

Using your data source and current numbers our ratio has dropped to 13;1 with Delta at roughly 12:1, so we get a weeks less vacation, less holidays , less sick time and $5 hr less for 1 more guy per airplane? That comes out to roughly $120,000,000 in concessions for 600 jobs, or $200,000 in concessions per single job saved. Obviously there was no even tradeoff of concessions vs jobs, AA got both. It would be more cost effective for us to keep the wage and pay them their full salary to stay home. Are you denying that our headcount wont continue to shrink as we get new aircraft? That soon our ratio will be well below non-union Delta with lower pay and less benefits?

 

[Thomas Paine]

Has SWA furloughed any AMT's? Ratios does not mean they furloughed anyone. It just means they did not hire as many to keep the ratio higher. Newer aircraft require less maintenance. Earlier 737's are considered more maintenance intense than the newer generation and the more hours they accumulate the more intense and man hours required. Take a look at your our own back yard. The new Airbus's will fly until it needs a C check and it gets returned for a new one. AA made a deal for the new 737's heavy's to be outsourced. Should I mention the future of our 757's and MD-80's?
When all is said and done what will our ratio at AA look like? That depends on the back door deals the TWU will make to try to save as many jobs as possible. So our ratio in the future is as clear as the formula for our equity stock distribution.
 
Common denominator of the two? TWU!

Its just his spin, he is desperate and its all he has. He knows better. he knows that the only reason why AA's ratio increased was because AA's fleet was aging, and that our contract , even before the concessions had nothing in it as far as ratios. Its nothing more than a figure of circumstance and in reality means nothing. He knows that this is by far the worst deal in the industry but he feels he still has his ability to spin things to how he wants people to see them, he is done, he just cant admit it to himself.

 

[Thomas Paine]

Your expecting too much from the TWU or the IAM. Parker does not even want to negotiate with the IAM on the USAir side. They are locked in Mediation and the company has the advantage. It's like stuck in the snow and you can not rock back and forth out of the ditch.

Overspeed also expected that mechanics would get millions added to our contract by participating in JLT, PLI and so on. He loves management and actually believes they love him too.

 

[Overspeed]

How many SWA mechanics have been laid off? Ratios mean nothing, nowhere in our contract does it state how many mechanics per airplane AA will have. Do you really think that any mechanic is concerned about the ratio more so than layoffs and paycuts? Its a BS figure that you use to attempt to support your lies because its all you have, the facts show where the truth is. Many factors affect the ratio such as equipment, age of equipment, operation etc.

You made the claim they gave away jobs in order to get a few guys more pay but real numbers and real people prove your claim to be false. No SWA mechanic has ever been laid off, so your claim is a lie. Thousands of AA mechanics have been laid off since 2003, so your claim that we gave concessions to save jobs is a lie and your comparison between the two carriers carries zero credibility. The facts are the exact opposite of what you stated. SWA mechanics have never been laid off , their headcount continues to climb and they have the best contract for mechanics in the industry, in the meantime AA has laid off thousands, reduced headcount by thousands more than the RIFs and we have the worst contract in the industry. Those are real facts that directly affect the mechanics working under those deals and even you can not deny that they have increased their head count and SWA mechanics enjoy greater job security and much better pay than their AA counterparts.

 
Never said SWA laid off people in any of my comments. I said that SWA got the ability to outsource more work (lower AMT to aircraft ratio) in exchange for higher pay. The average fleet age is at 11.3 years at SWA has been going since growth has also slowed. The fleet is well in to there heavy C cycle which is the high labor hour work as you well know.
 
The ratios at AA show that in 2002 AA was at 22.2 and we were at 21.4. Yes some jobs were lost but doubtful if they had reached what was planned in the Vermont Plan (close all but TULE and all Class IIs) that AA was looking for under Carty.
 
Not going to argue with you any further on this. Even with tweaking for fleet, age, and maintenance programs SWA still outsources much more than anyone else. They do this by sweetening the pay for those who work there already and asking to outsource a little more. They are okay with that so it's their union, they control their own fate. 
 
Now it's on those that work here at AA. Change the direction of the TWU by pushing the new regime to accept more outsourcing for higher pay and better work rules. Local 591 is suing the TWU for DFR stating that the line was discriminated against by protecting the base jobs. How will that turn out?

 

[Thomas Paine]

You have repeatedly made the claim that SWA gave up jobs for higher pay. Well if jobs were lost as you claim then how come nobody was laid off and the total headcount continues to climb? You claimed that we gave concessions to save jobs yet thousands have been laid off and our total headcount is less than half what it once was. The facts prove both claims to be a lie. No wonder you don't want to argue it any more now, but we can be pretty sure that some time in the future you will take another crack at it, you always do.

 

[Thomas Paine]

Just curious Overspeed, you once admitted that would would be willing to give away everything except checkoff and Tulsa. Those are the two issues you would strike over, nothing else. Well you already gave away Tulsa but if AMFA comes on the property would you still strike for checkoff?

 

[Overspeed]

You have repeatedly made the claim that SWA gave up jobs for higher pay. Well if jobs were lost as you claim then how come nobody was laid off and the total headcount continues to climb? You claimed that we gave concessions to save jobs yet thousands have been laid off and our total headcount is less than half what it once was. The facts prove both claims to be a lie. No wonder you don't want to argue it any more now, but we can be pretty sure that some time in the future you will take another crack at it, you always do.

 
Jobs were lost from the perspective that if the ratio was maintained as aircraft were added, there would be 300 to 400 more people there. It's that simple. 
 
The total headcount has been halved because we dropped from a combined fleet of over 800 to around 600. Given that the joining of TWA and AA provided certain efficiencies then again you would lose additional HC for that as well. The ratio is the best measuring stick because it shows that AA in 2001 to AA at year end 2012 we have dropped only one job per aircraft or 700 jobs approximately for the 2003 concessions.
 
Now with the 2012 BK changes, if AA had received their goal of industry standard outsourcing, we would be at many more jobs lost due to outsourcing. AA basically wanted to off load AO system wide like UA and DL. 
 
Try applying some critical thinking skills to your comparisons and even if someone comes to a different result doesn't make them a liar. It means they applied different logic. Why don't you run for office and pursue your plan for organized labor and let's see what happens.

 

[Overspeed]

Just curious Overspeed, you once admitted that would would be willing to give away everything except checkoff and Tulsa. Those are the two issues you would strike over, nothing else. Well you already gave away Tulsa but if AMFA comes on the property would you still strike for checkoff?

 
Uh, TUL is still there and the OSS % is rapidly closing in on 35%. Nobody gave away TUL.

 

[Thomas Paine]

Uh, TUL is still there and the OSS % is rapidly closing in on 35%. Nobody gave away TUL.

Sure you did, show us the language which says the Tulsa base will stay.

Rapidly closing in on the 35% as they wrap up work on old planes that are going away. How much of the work will still be here in two years?

Jobs were lost from the perspective that if the ratio was maintained as aircraft were added, there would be 300 to 400 more people there. It's that simple. 
 

That simple and utterly meaningless from the perspective of a dues paying member at SWA or AA.

In other words no dues paying member at SWA ever lost their job due in order to support higher wages.

But from "the perspective" of someone whose not actually selling his own labor and has to live with working more for less that the Union at SWA lost the opportunity to add even more jobs than they did had they been willing to sell the labor of their dues paying members at a discount. So from the business unionist perspective its better to have more members paying dues , to discount their labor and get more dues payers than to hold out and have fewer members making higher wages, in other words the Union should serve its own interests in maximizing dues instead of maximizing wages and benefits. You are saying that the union should put the interests of people who are not paying dues at the same level as the interests of those who are paying dues .

So from this 'perspective" of yours its OK that the TWU sells mechanics labor at below market rates in order to maximize and maintain dues flow?

If I read you right you are saying that dues paying members should be willing to work for less not necessarily to keep his coworker on the job, but rather current dues paying members should be willing to work for less to ensure that the company hires new workers after guys retire, quit or die to try and maintain some BS ratio and maximize the number of people paying dues.

 

[1AA]

Overspeed also expected that mechanics would get millions added to our contract by participating in JLT, PLI and so on. He loves management and actually believes they love him too.

Maybe he is or was management or a management wanna be. It is just so pathetic that we as a group can not get together and say enough is enough and move on to better our futures for the industry and the future AMT's who still have a love for aviation.

 

[Thomas Paine]

Maybe he is or was management TWU/ATD International or a management wanna be.